scatter bred v's line bred

[FrostyPaws]

How are shows used to skulldrag dogs when 95% of shows end with one dog quitting in under 45 minutes? There are very seldom ANY skulldragging aspects in shows. Does it happen? Sure, but it surely doesn't happen often enough to say your dog has seen any bottom during a show. If a person wants to see gameness, then you're going to have to take it upon yourself most of the time to see exactly that. If a person wants to see if a dog can win, then show it. Those two don't walk hand-in-hand in any sense of the word most of the time.

Yes, eventually you may run into a dog that could have your dog quit, but that has so many different variables in regards to the quality of dog you're showing and the quality of the opponent.

I've never had an issue with doing things at home, because in the end, I'm more concerned with gameness than I am with winning a show. Winning shows are easy once a person goes out and sees the kind of dogs that regularly win. Showing dogs, to me, has always been about showing the absolute BEST dogs from the yard. The GOOD dogs can kick up dust and settle it at the house. I want the backbone of my breeding program to be based around and on dogs that have been under serious pressure and withstood that pressure. If/when I run into the BEST dog that may not ever see that, well, that dog has a place also.

All that being said, my original point was that true colors are usually seen a lot more readily at home than any show IF a person wants to see such a thing.

[skipper]

To be honest this has not been the case for me. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying what makes sense to me in my situation. If I'm not leaving the yard to check my dogs I have no clue what the competition is. To me this is about winning shows. Not making stories at home on how good and game your dogs are. I rather show 3 dogs from a litter with 2 of em being average then just showing the best one. I learn 3 times as much by showing all 3 of em. This is just how I see it. Getting as many shows as I can and winning as many as I can. If I get my ass kicked, I learn something from that too. Not leaving the yard will make you blind very fast.

[pig mad]

I see both your points of veiw as relevant.

[Black Hand]

What a dog shows u in a familiar environment with the luxury of being at home isn't always the same result you would have gotten had you been somewhere foreign. Good or bad.

[FrostyPaws]

To be honest this has not been the case for me. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying what makes sense to me in my situation. If I'm not leaving the yard to check my dogs I have no clue what the competition is. To me this is about winning shows. Not making stories at home on how good and game your dogs are. I rather show 3 dogs from a litter with 2 of em being average then just showing the best one. I learn 3 times as much by showing all 3 of em. This is just how I see it. Getting as many shows as I can and winning as many as I can. If I get my ass kicked, I learn something from that too. Not leaving the yard will make you blind very fast.

No one ever said don't leave your yard to check your dogs. The entire idea of checking dogs is to simply do that: Check them. Most of the times during shows, there is no checking of dogs going on. You have one average dog beating another average dog with one quitting in 40 minutes. The difference is that someone lost money on an average dog just because they wanted to show a dog. It's not because that dog was the ideal match dog. It is simply due to someone wanting to match dogs. That is the category that most people fall into, and at one time, I was with you in that boat.

My philosophy changed over the years. I decided that if I were going to put my time into showing a dog, I'm going to take a match quality dog. The days were over where I was just gonna take a dog just to take one. The average dogs can be found out pretty quick just by the schooling process, and where they fall after that is where they fall. It doesn't take you matching a dog to learn anything about your dog aside from whether it can win or not. A person can learn a lot more about 2 dogs of equal size and abilities WITHOUT being conditioned than they ever can with them being conditioned. You're taking an advantage away from someone that has a lot more conditioning experience than the other, and the dogs are getting a chance to sort it out themselves with what they have. It's not about making up stories. It's about knowing the truth, and the truth is something man can never change. He can attempt to hide it, belittle it, but he can't change it.

What makes someone blind is a lack of an eye for a quality dog. Objectivity about what you think you own and what you actually own is what helps a person to see.

Black Hand, what a dog shows you under extreme pressure is what it is. There are no luxuries involved when things aren't going your way whether it's at your house or some other house. That's exactly why a person should make it a habit to take their dogs to other places so they never run into that situation. A person can eliminate a lot of variables if they put their mind to doing so.

The truth is there for all who really want to see it, and yes, when I started seeing the truth in dogs, it was very bitter indeed.

We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter. ~Denis Diderot

[evolutionkennels]

I am going to say this, I've seen rolls or off the chain matches that were far better than the shows. Some shows the dogs were overworked and By the time the show came around, they were a shadow of themselves. I've seen a dog win a show where I thought, I wouldnt feed that son of a bitch that won. Buck vs sandman made both dogs look average because they were so evenly matched. There are lots of variables. Personally, I like to keep two strains of the same line. I absolutely love the retarded crawl on all 4's swap it out tit for tat, screaming in the corner dog. But I also like the I'm going to finish you in the throat right away super smart super ability dog. For this reason, I am breeding all of Mr.Machobucks daughters to Machobear. The objective is to get one that has both qualities. I agree with both gentleman. The show is the ultimate test. Winning three proves something. However, as a breeder.. I know what I want, and I know what I have. Gameness for me in my line is important. If you told me I was going into the baddest straight ahead looking for the chest dog..I'd bring out Mr.Machobuck, if you told me I was going to need three hours, I'd bring machobear. But the objective is to end up with one that has all of those combined traits.

[EWO]

I agree with the show not being the measuring stick. It is quite the accomplishment and it was the original goal. My hat is off to all that win. With that said, I have seen a set of 2XWer's going for the championship and I would not have give a squirt a piss of either. One left that night a champion and that is truly a great accomplishments and I take nothing away from him or the fact he was brought out three times.
And checking two unconditioned dogs or doing two off the chain (for real off the chain) is a far better way to find out where a dog wants to be. If I miss in the keep, or have no idea of what I am doing and I run into someone who has their dog kept and on weight my dog will have to be two to three times better than him to even have a chance. Can it happen? Yes. But odds always say the unconditioned dog will succumb in the end, regardless of which of the two is better.

[OGDOGG]

Skipper has a point as far as showing out side his camp in order to know what he has vs what others got. I knew of a camp who bred and checked their dogs against each other. When they started showing them, every one of them lost and curred out. They finally realize back yard breeding and being kennel blind was getting them nowhere. So they bought new dogs and started schooling out side their camp and now they're doing better than before.
Frosty Paw also has a very good point too. If you already have dogs no one else can beat, why step outside to find out if he is worthy when you could just put that prospect against the best ones on your yard, who already whooped all others.
In the end it's all about the quality of the dog that prospect is showing against. The way I see it, if my young bitch can handle 30 minutes without getting killed by a killing machine who usually finish her opponents within that time frame, then she is a bad bitch in my eyes.

[EWO]

That pretty much happened with the scatter bred bitch I wrote about earlier. He bought dogs for a lot of $$$ from guys out there winning shows. She cleared the chain spots at every chance. She was that good. I had one close to the same weight and we used them to check each other. That bitch went on to pick up four W's. Mine picked up 2 herself. Six wins total between the two and none of the six delivered what that check did. Five more minutes between them and maybe this story never develops. These bitches never seen anything like each other in six times out. They were both winners but not any of the wins said "bulldog" more than their special time together. So it goes both ways. The true test does not have to be up and down the road, and the best show may not be the show itself. EWO

[FrostyPaws]

Skipper has a point as far as showing out side his camp in order to know what he has vs what others got. I knew of a camp who bred and checked their dogs against each other. When they started showing them, every one of them lost and curred out. They finally realize back yard breeding and being kennel blind was getting them nowhere. So they bought new dogs and started schooling out side their camp and now they're doing better than before.

This is very true, and that goes to show that those people's eye for quality dogs wasn't as good as they originally thought. That is the heart of the entire matter. I've known a lot of people whose dogs show well on one another, but they don't do so well outside the yard? Why is that? The quality isn't there, and the owner isn't able to distinguish chicken salad from chicken shit. If a person has seen his fair share of quality dogs, both from his own yard and others, they should start to see a pattern of quality. If they see it and don't learn, well, there's no help for those people. But again OG and Skipper, that has some more to do with the owner not knowing what good dogs are as opposed to just staying within their own yard.

Frosty Paw also has a very good point too. If you already have dogs no one else can beat, why step outside to find out if he is worthy when you could just put that prospect against the best ones on your yard, who already whooped all others.
In the end it's all about the quality of the dog that prospect is showing against. The way I see it, if my young bitch can handle 30 minutes without getting killed by a killing machine who usually finish her opponents within that time frame, then she is a bad bitch in my eyes.

If you have a bitch that sticks around for 30 minutes with a dog like you describe, you don't have just a good dog. You have a MATCH quality dog. If the yard is predominately made up of good, quality dogs, then you really have no reason to leave the yard when schooling or checking dogs when you have the ability to do that, at home, if you like. If you have a match quality dog out of that bunch, then jump on it. I'd rather show 2 or 3 match quality dogs and win multiple times than show two are three average dogs just to say I'm showing dogs.