i didnt know there was different levels i read in another post today a dog was pit game but quit in 40min im a nobody but that sounds stupid to me if it quit in 40min is that an insult to a game dog i thought the meaning of the word was not to quit??
You have obviously never seen a dog get outclassed. I have seen dogs scratch back in 10 mins that i would call game. With punctured lungs, crushed chest bones and a certain death in front of them. To me that is a gamedog. 10 or 120 mins.
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I agree there are different levels of Gameness, but in my experience you can't measure it by time. I can only gauge Gameness by watching the individual work. If a dog doesn't take bottom or any significant damage in my opinion, he isn't proven to be game. I can't say that a 2hr dog is game without seeing him work, and I can't say that a dog that lost in 40 is a cur without seeing the hunt. You'd be surprised how many people cant tell the difference between shock & quit.... And a dead game dog is useless and only good for a good story to tell. JMO
Originally Posted by pig mad
There simply are levels of gameness, same as there are levels of every other trait these dogs are known to have
The people who adhere to the "game" or "cur" mentality either aren't very bright, they have no imagination, or they suffer from OCD.
The truth is, people confuse DEAD gameness with mere gameness. Dead gameness is simply the highest form of gameness that there is, and in fact the very phenomenon of using the phrase "dead game" itself implies there are lesser forms of gameness and therefore degrees of gameness
The presence of gameness is merely the presence of the desire to win in a dog, and this desire to win comes in an infinite variance of degrees among dogs ... from none at all ... up to the point some dogs would rather die than stop trying ... and everything inbetween.
What it all boils down to, therefore, to us as dogmen is what is an ACCEPTABLE level of gameness in any particular dog? This is where opinions vary, and where people get confused, and this confusion is further complicated by the fact there is such a "stigma" attached to a dog quitting (especially amongst novices, who have big egos and little brains), as nobody wants to be associated with "having a cur" ... almost like they have the cooties
To more experienced and mature dogmen, the questions surrounding a dog's gameness aren't really whether he's "game" or "cur" any longer ... since pretty much any dog can be ruined if someone tries hard enough ... but the question becomes more along the lines of "Is he game enough TO WIN." The name of the game is WINNING, not taking one's death losing, so there has to be some balance achieved between ability and enough gameness to keep that ability in there
Plainly stated, in order to compete and win in open competition, a bulldog has to have an extraordinary level of gameness, way beyond the average dog, however (depending on his skill level) some dogs do not have to be "dead game" in order to win. Through selective breeding, many dogs have the ability to destroy the average match dog (or out-slick it) that is so great that their gameness will never be tested--and really doesn't need to be tested either. Under ordinary circumstances, these dog will simply blow through regular bulldogs.
By contrast, some dogs don't have much ability, but they are so game and so tough that you simply cannot "kill them quick." Generally, the lower the skill level in the dog, the more that dog is going to have to rely on gameness (durability, stamina, etc.) in order to pull things off in a "comeback" later on down in the trenches at some point. Other dogs have the skills to keep themselves from getting hurt, softening up their opponents over time, and then rolling-up their sleeves and going to work on a now-tired opponent. My original dogs tended to be like this, and generally were behind early at first, not getting hurt too bad though, from which point they would gradually start to pull ahead at the :40 to 1:20 mark on their confused and tired foes ... and so extreme gameness has always been a preference of mine, because my dogs' style required being "in there" long enough to mount a comeback and win. (Hence my other handle "SmileWiper")
With these things said, "how game" a dog is really isn't determined by a watch (or by "how long" the dogs have gone), but by what's happening in there. A dog that goes 1:20, but who isn't tired and isn't hurt, has NOT shown as much gameness as a dog that belly-crawls at :35, bloodless & with a blown-out front end, with two arteries having bled the dog out. So stop looking at your watch to determine "how game" your dog is, and pay attention to 1) how DOMINATED the dog has been, 2) how TIRED the dog is, 3) how FRUSTRATED the dog is, 4) how INJURED the dog is, and/or 5) how MUCH BLOOD the dog has lost.
When you realize that gameness is just a trait, like any other needed performance trait, you will quickly realize they ALL come in varying degrees. Just as dogs have "varying degrees" of how hard they bite ... of how long they can go before they're tired ... of how smart they are in there ... of how much abuse they can take before collapsing ... etc., etc., etc. ... so too will you easily see that dogs have varying degrees of how bad they want to win ... and how much HELL they are willing to endure before they give up trying.
All of these traits come in varying degrees, and we as dogmen simply have to select those dogs that have enough of these key traits to be competitive out there, against anyone. Those dogmen whose dogs repeatedly and consistently win out there prove the worth of their "eye for a dog" ... while those dogmen whose dogs don't ever get heard of prove they need to re-evaluate their eye or selection process.
Hope this clarifies,
Jack
yeah i understand but still seems bit funny. i only have 1 thats been tested and he belly crawls being a novice i thought thats what its all about.
no one can really tell you what "it's all about". that's just a matter of opinion. every person like different things for different reasons.
Well put big guy! Wake em up.....There simply are levels of gameness, same as there are levels of every other trait these dogs are known to have
The people who adhere to the "game" or "cur" mentality either aren't very bright, they have no imagination, or they suffer from OCD.
The truth is, people confuse DEAD gameness with mere gameness. Dead gameness is simply the highest form of gameness that there is, and in fact the very phenomenon of using the phrase "dead game" itself implies there are lesser forms of gameness and therefore degrees of gameness
The presence of gameness is merely the presence of the desire to win in a dog, and this desire to win comes in an infinite variance of degrees among dogs ... from none at all ... up to the point some dogs would rather die than stop trying ... and everything inbetween.
What it all boils down to, therefore, to us as dogmen is what is an ACCEPTABLE level of gameness in any particular dog? This is where opinions vary, and where people get confused, and this confusion is further complicated by the fact there is such a "stigma" attached to a dog quitting (especially amongst novices, who have big egos and little brains), as nobody wants to be associated with "having a cur" ... almost like they have the cooties
To more experienced and mature dogmen, the questions surrounding a dog's gameness aren't really whether he's "game" or "cur" any longer ... since pretty much any dog can be ruined if someone tries hard enough ... but the question becomes more along the lines of "Is he game enough TO WIN." The name of the game is WINNING, not taking one's death losing, so there has to be some balance achieved between ability and enough gameness to keep that ability in there
Plainly stated, in order to compete and win in open competition, a bulldog has to have an extraordinary level of gameness, way beyond the average dog, however (depending on his skill level) some dogs do not have to be "dead game" in order to win. Through selective breeding, many dogs have the ability to destroy the average match dog (or out-slick it) that is so great that their gameness will never be tested--and really doesn't need to be tested either. Under ordinary circumstances, these dog will simply blow through regular bulldogs.
By contrast, some dogs don't have much ability, but they are so game and so tough that you simply cannot "kill them quick." Generally, the lower the skill level in the dog, the more that dog is going to have to rely on gameness (durability, stamina, etc.) in order to pull things off in a "comeback" later on down in the trenches at some point. Other dogs have the skills to keep themselves from getting hurt, softening up their opponents over time, and then rolling-up their sleeves and going to work on a now-tired opponent. My original dogs tended to be like this, and generally were behind early at first, not getting hurt too bad though, from which point they would gradually start to pull ahead at the :40 to 1:20 mark on their confused and tired foes ... and so extreme gameness has always been a preference of mine, because my dogs' style required being "in there" long enough to mount a comeback and win. (Hence my other handle "SmileWiper"
With these things said, "how game" a dog is really isn't determined by a watch (or by "how long" the dogs have gone), but by what's happening in there. A dog that goes 1:20, but who isn't tired and isn't hurt, has NOT shown as much gameness as a dog that belly-crawls at :35, bloodless & with a blown-out front end, with two arteries having bled the dog out. So stop looking at your watch to determine "how game" your dog is, and pay attention to 1) how DOMINATED the dog has been, 2) how TIRED the dog is, 3) how FRUSTRATED the dog is, 4) how INJURED the dog is, and/or 5) how MUCH BLOOD the dog has lost.
When you realize that gameness is just a trait, like any other needed performance trait, you will quickly realize they ALL come in varying degrees. Just as dogs have "varying degrees" of how hard they bite ... of how long they can go before they're tired ... of how smart they are in there ... of how much abuse they can take before collapsing ... etc., etc., etc. ... so too will you easily see that dogs have varying degrees of how bad they want to win ... and how much HELL they are willing to endure before they give up trying.
All of these traits come in varying degrees, and we as dogmen simply have to select those dogs that have enough of these key traits to be competitive out there, against anyone. Those dogmen whose dogs repeatedly and consistently win out there prove the worth of their "eye for a dog" ... while those dogmen whose dogs don't ever get heard of prove they need to re-evaluate their eye or selection process.
Hope this clarifies,
Jack
Labeling one game and cur can be black and white but there are also a lot of gray areas. For me, the fact dead game carries a positive vibe with these dogs just baffles me. In the phrase the operative word is dead, not game. End of that particular story regardless if you have sire and dam, brothers and sisters. Dead is dead. For me, and this may step on toes so I will pre-apologize, if anyone allows their dog to stay there til death when death is the only outcome (out classed, out matched, poorly conditioned, whatever, whatever) is a piece of shit. I understand it happens but to see it, and allow it to reach dead game status is just plain dumb. A lot of times dead game comes about because of money. Leaving him there hoping the other will quit on top to win the bet.
Off the soap box now, I believe there are levels of gameness. I believe some dogs know when to show gameness or aggression. The pictures of GrCh Virgil with 4 and 5 month old puppies. Ch. Angel could be turned out on the farm to run free with the blue heeler cattle dogs. In the box they both had finish and were considered game animals. Ch. Charlie would scratch to anything put in front of him, including you if you got down on all fours. I had one that anyone seen him said he was deep game and they would bet he was dead game. Personally I think he just loved it so much he would stay there no matter. He looked disappointed/dejected if another was taken off the chain.
Are the rocket scratchers any more game than the more methodical one who scratches to a hold? Regardless of how each of us call it the dog only has to stay there long enough to win. And that is not on match night all the time, it can be in a check when even though he is getting drug, he thinks and acts as if he is winning. He looks across and everyone in the building knows he is having his ass handed to him, except for the most important one, himself. Let me go and I will wear his ass out again, even if things are to the contrary. EWO
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