Honesty and Integrity

[No Quarter Kennel]

I saw a post on this forum by a young man selling some dogs. This has nothing to do with him or his litter as we are all confident, they are good dogs and more than worthy of their feed and keep. During the discussion, the character or honesty of one of the dogs in the pedigree came into question. Black Hand made a comment that got me thinking of a discussion topic.

Although dogs don't lie and people do, where do we draw the line on breeders and dogmen who lie? We probably all own a dog with one or two dogs in 7 generations that are fabrications by pedigree. I own a lot of stock down from Maurice Carver. He was known to lie quite a bit about his "recipe" and "cake".

We seem to draw hard lines on folks who lie when it concerns our dogs. However, the past is the past and no one really throws a fit too much about it. Tom Garner comes to mind as someone whose honesty is always questioned about how dogs may or may not be bred, or he does in circles I talk within.

Where is the line? What do we or can we do about it? And how much does it matter or not?

Me personally, if a fellow will lie to me about anything, then I have to believe he'd lie to me about everything. For me, I don't want anything to do with them on any level. Personally, business, dogs, etc. But I'm sure not judging here either. I truly believe half of what I see and none of what I hear.

[Nextlevel]

dont be surprised when someone lies or is full of b.s be surprised when someone is straight up as good guys are a dying breed.ill take my dogs over these human curs any day. i know for a fact their are some good dogmen left so reputation is a key in certain dealings

[Black Hand]

if 10 people own dogs down from a lie, its not okay. if 1,000 people own stuff down from a lie, it's okay. that's how it works.

[Kimo615]

I dont hold much weight in a pedigree anymore really. Yes its nice...it's pretty. And, it would be cool to know the real history of your dog. But 99% chance that history was falsly fabricated years before my dogs existence. A good one is a good one. A pedigree is a half assed blue print in most cases. I said in another post that this use to be a gentleman's dog/game. All it takes is one bad apple to tarnish the whole damn thing if he breeds enough and has dogs become a part of our pedigrees such as Carvers dogs. Not to say he wasn't a great dogman. He's a legend. But I wish paper hanging didn't happen period. But then again...can you blame anyone for not giving away the winning lottery ticket so to speak? I'm a honest man, so that's not my style. But I tried seeing the other point of view. OK for example... I own a TG pup Chinaman/Spike (Little Gator) blood. But Fat Bill swears Gr Ch Snakmans Pedro is the Sire of little Gator. Not Garners Gr Ch Spike. Does it matter if the pup I own is a good one? Not really. Does it bother me because I want to know his true history? Yes. But...I will never know. Guess it depends on who I believe. Fat Bill or TG.

[Black Hand]

I don't believe that secret recipe hype. more like they hang papers to sell dogs.

[FrostyPaws]

Realistically, there is nothing anyone can do about people lying. People lie. If you think a breeder is a liar, you don't deal with him. That's how we, as individuals, deal with someone we don't like or don't believe.

That being said, if a particular breeder is known to be a liar, but that breeder consistently produces quality dogs, then people are going to overlook the flaw in the person's integrity. In this game, a majority of people want quality dogs. They don't care so much about the lies. If Carver was alive today, can you imagine the dogs he would be selling if he were able to continue breeding the same quality of dog? People would question it, but they'd still spend their money with him. The dog game is full of people like that, and it has been for decades.

[bulldogsrus]

[QUOTE= Yes. But...I will never know. Guess it depends on who I believe. Fat Bill or TG.[/QUOTE]

The same FB that made reports up for zabo and got found out ! I would NOT believe anything he told me.

[Kimo615]

You would or wouldn't believe Fat Bill?

[AmberLamps]

For me there's nothing worse than finding out you've been lied to on how a dog is bred, it's happened to me in the past and I ended up culling the dog out of sheer frustration.

I'm in agreement with NQK, in that, if someone has lied to me then I wouldn't have anything to do with that person again. One thing I just can't tolerate in life is a liar.

[Kimo615]

I hear ya... So...let me ask this. What benefit would TG have saying Gr Ch Spike sired Little Gator vs Gr Ch Snakemans Pedro? Pedro was on his yard at the same time. He owned them both at that time. So what is the benefit? The both are Gr Ch. Hell....Pedro has double the wins. He's X9 plus two uncontracted. Seems to me they are both hella bulldogs ya know. Both where sought after highly. That's why I dont see any logic in lieing about that.