Honesty and Integrity

[Kimo615]

That's interesting Frosty. Never heard that about Pedro. I've had a old school dogmen tell me Pedro's pups where highly sought after at the time he was on Garners yard. Seems I did read that about Snakeman though. Crazy how Spike sired all those black dogs from that breeding that produced Little Gator though. Wish I could find a pic of Gators brother Buddy boy.

[FrostyPaws]

Pedro produced some good dogs, both for Snakeman and Garner. I will never say otherwise, but the rest of it? It's all up in the air and has been for a long time. Just water under the bridge at this point.

[skipper]

If you expect decency and honesty from dogmen you will get burned. Think about it. This here is a sport, we are all competitors. In every other sport on the planet people cheat and lie to get ahead (we all remember maradonas "hand of god" for example). If you implement the fact that our sport is illegal, who attracts all kinds of assholes. Why on earth would you expect honesty? Either you learn to handle the cheats and the lies or you need to find another hobby. If you decide not to deal with people that aren't honest there will be a very few left. I know from experience. On the bright side there still are a few decent dogmen out there. Find em and treat em right!

[Kimo615]

I agree on the part about cheating and sports...what sport doesn't have a cheater. Especially with the type of people these dogs attract. Its only going to get worse from here fellas....Sadly. That's why I'm going to develope and run the line I got to the day I die. Minus a few crosses when needed. Worst case scenario Atleast I know I'll always have decent hound to feed. May not produce Gr Ch every other day. But a good bulldawg that I know to the core.

[Gameness]

I agree on the part about cheating and sports...what sport doesn't have a cheater. Especially with the type of people these dogs attract. Its only going to get worse from here fellas....Sadly. That's why I'm going to develope and run the line I got to the day I die. Minus a few crosses when needed. Worst case scenario Atleast I know I'll always have decent hound to feed. May not produce Gr Ch every other day. But a good bulldawg that I know to the core.

Good spirit! What line you running? And how are they performing for you?

[Kimo615]

Thanks Gameness...I'm running Chinaman/Little Gator. So far so good. Breed standard dogs. Great confirmation...great temperament ..game and tremendous drive. Lots of wind and mouth on them little dogs. Co own a dog that's Chinaman/Spike. Did have a pair of Eli/Carver/Reddevil dogs. Eli/Carver down from Gr Ch Art. But...unfortunately those two got old on me and passed two days apart. Those where some very game and super smart dogs. Im trying to locate pups from them two so I can get that blood back.

[Officially Retired]

I saw a post on this forum by a young man selling some dogs. This has nothing to do with him or his litter as we are all confident, they are good dogs and more than worthy of their feed and keep. During the discussion, the character or honesty of one of the dogs in the pedigree came into question. Black Hand made a comment that got me thinking of a discussion topic.
Although dogs don't lie and people do, where do we draw the line on breeders and dogmen who lie? We probably all own a dog with one or two dogs in 7 generations that are fabrications by pedigree. I own a lot of stock down from Maurice Carver. He was known to lie quite a bit about his "recipe" and "cake".
We seem to draw hard lines on folks who lie when it concerns our dogs. However, the past is the past and no one really throws a fit too much about it. Tom Garner comes to mind as someone whose honesty is always questioned about how dogs may or may not be bred, or he does in circles I talk within.
Where is the line? What do we or can we do about it? And how much does it matter or not?
Me personally, if a fellow will lie to me about anything, then I have to believe he'd lie to me about everything. For me, I don't want anything to do with them on any level. Personally, business, dogs, etc. But I'm sure not judging here either. I truly believe half of what I see and none of what I hear.

As the old saying goes, "Consider the source."

I think what Frosty said about Carver is true: most people who are legitimately active want GOOD DOGS more than they want "honest paperwork," whereas most people who want to buy dogs to breed and sell puppies want "reliable paperwork.'

I absolutely understand that it is best to have both, but I have noticed (for the most part) that heavily-active dogfighters don't like puppies too much, and really don't give a damn how a dog is "bred," sll they care about is can this dog kick ass and bring home the money? It is very rare to find the man who is both a world class breeder and an active dogfighter ... but when you find such a man you can rest assured that he is breeding his own dogs and isn't worried about "paperwork" any longer, because he is intimately familiar with his own dogs.

Back when I was starting out, I bred to Ch Hammer thinking he was off of BBB. It was only much later that I discovered that he was (in all probability) off of Reuben, as this thread describes. Am I a liar for not "telling everyone" what I believe to be true regarding Hammer? No. My thoughts on Hammer constitute belief not knowledge. I will never know the truth about Hammer; but I do have very strong beliefs concerning the dog, and have more experience with Hammer dogs (and true BBB dogs) than just about anyone on the planet: and the difference in traits is marked.

In the end, I can only be 100% truthful about MY OWN pedigrees. And that's it. And I stuck with my own line long enough, and bred into it deep enough, that Ch Hammer didn't matter much anymore, it was MY DOGS who mattered and determined what I got. As I developed as a breeder, I discovered rather quickly that many "world famous breeders" (Patrick, Carver, etc.) are all fuggen liars, which (I also concluded) was ultimately a big waste of their time "hiding their recipe" for nothing. As a successful family breeder myself, I quickly learned that NOBODY LISTENS ANYWAY ... you can give 99% of the people the veritable blueprint for successful breeding, and they will ignore all your good advice and make their own foolish breeding decisions anyway

Only a rare few people can actually perpetuate a gene pool indefinitely; the vast majority will breed all of the quality and consistency out of their dogs in a generation or two and be forced to "start over again."

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

I quickly learned that NOBODY LISTENS ANYWAY ... you can give 99% of the people the veritable blueprint for successful breeding, and they will ignore all your good advice and make their own foolish breeding decisions anyway

Excellent and I couldn't agree more. Every line of work, the truly elite seem to be willing to share and "give away" what they do. In my profession, I go after the elite all the time in search of what they do. Never found one to not freely give away their so-called secrets. Most, NEVER even really listen. I've been fortunate to be successful I guess b/c I'm just dumb enough to do it just like the good ones say they do it. Easier than most want to believe.

[EWO]

The logic is not in the lie itself, it is what the lie makes available. Spike has a litter of five puppies. Pedro sires a litter of five pups. 8 people call with $$$$ for Spike puppies. Two people call looking for Pedro puppies. Do the math. EWO

I hear ya... So...let me ask this. What benefit would TG have saying Gr Ch Spike sired Little Gator vs Gr Ch Snakemans Pedro? Pedro was on his yard at the same time. He owned them both at that time. So what is the benefit? The both are Gr Ch. Hell....Pedro has double the wins. He's X9 plus two uncontracted. Seems to me they are both hella bulldogs ya know. Both where sought after highly. That's why I dont see any logic in lieing about that.

[Kimo615]

Yea...I can see that. Wasn't thinking of it like that really. I figured they were both great dogs and wouldn't have problems selling pups of either. But makes sense to me.