When u buy a dog who dog it really is

[SteelyDan]

Give each as much credit as they deserve...i think its simple as that. If the breeder acquired two dogs from someone else, bred them together and voila ... passed them on... id say they deserve very little credit. Same with a man who didn't put much work into his dog and won a match.

Some breeders are half assed where as others bring out the HAMMER and go through them dogs to create very consistent results. Why would you not give credit to the later?

Same with those who match some walk them around the neighborhood and others hit the books finding the best diet, supplements, and training techniques. Schooling their dogs out right and taking the time to find the optimum weight. Once again the later deserves credit also.

Those who match need breeders and those who breed need folks to match their dogs. Its a mutualistic symbiotic relationship, two dissimilar organisms living together in a relationship that benefits both parties.

[canismajor]

hard lesson learned . w/o contract on dog you cant force a donkey (owner) to follow instructions / warnings .

[widerange]

When a the typical blowhard wins, he likes to take all the credit himself.
When the typical blowhard loses, he likes to put all the blame on the dog (and the breeder).

When a good dogman wins, he tends to thank the breeder for the good dog ... and the breeder tends to thank the good dogman for doing the dog right
Funny how that works out ...

Jack

Jack I agree with you buddy too often people don't want to take blame but I'm glad that we agree a breeder should be thanked for good dogs and dogman for a good job done

[EWO]

I think it is a conglomeration that makes winners. The dog will only be as good as his genes say he will be. How his genes got where they are are a direct link to the breeder, or even the breeder that sold the dogs to the dog you got your winner from. (if that makes sense). A lot of times the great conditioner gets a lot of credit, and that is well deserved, but, the dog has to have the genetic predisposition to do some work to get there. The handler or the schooler can get a lot of credit. Making the call on what is enough for today and let's see about tomorrow is as important as anything else. If there was a hard fast rule that everybody adhered to without a deviation that said, No tooth will be placed in a dog til he is 24 months old. Percentages across the board would go up. Many a failed dog had the life forced upon him too early. And that, will trump the efforts of the most successful breeder, regardless of line or lineage. I doubt there is any right or wrong answers here. The best breeder that campaigns his own dogs and wins will quickly be dubbed with a negative reputation if no one else is winning with his dogs. If the best conditioner condition a sub par game plug to a couple of victories people will say I do not want to breed to the dog, I want to breed to the dog that made the dog. If a guy misses the weight and the dog comes up short it is the fault of the dog and the breeder because his recipe has worked before. It is easy to take the credit but it is so much easier to place the blame. EWO

[bolero]

Mmmmm, that's not giving enough credit to the breeder. That's like saying the race car driver is more important than being in a truly world class race car. The best driver is worth nothing without a good car to sit in. Thus THE AUTO MAKER is the most important, then the driver.

Sure, a lousy driver can crash a great car, but even a ho-hum driver can still compete and "go fast" if he's sitting in a truly-fast car to begin with ... while even the best driver in the world can't do shit sitting inside a Toyota Corolla

THE most important part of any race is a truly world class car ... from there, what matters are the drivers, but ALL OF THEM (win or lose) need a world class car FIRST in order to be in the running to compete. Because, in a good car, even so-so divers are still going awful damn fast

Back to this, any retard with a great dog can still crash and burn with his stupidity at the helm of greatness, but plenty of novices with great dogs (who have them in halfway decent shape) have beaten great dogmen with just "pretty good" dogs ...

Jack

and the world class car is nothing without a world class racer. the breeder knows traits and knows when the dogs should start and those type of things but the competitor is the one who is raising that pup into a world class athlete he is the one who day and night feeds that dog waters that dog and conditions that dog. now to me a keep starts at eight weeks old not just eight weeks long so i give my self a little more credit because it is me and my dogs blood sweat and tears that are entering the battlefield the breeder gets credit for breeding a winner but not the win because he was not handling conditioning or giving the dog medical attention i do those things so i get the credit for the win and the breeder gets the credit for knowing how to put the genes together to create that winner

[Officially Retired]

Actually, a world class car can go awfully damned fast, regarless of who's driving

[Officially Retired]

It may take one world class drive to beat another, when both have world class race cars, but an average guy with a world class car will blow the doors off a world class driver sitting behind the wheel of a Toyota

But when best cars meet the best cars, then absolutely the driver can make the difference

[AGK]

1. Generally, if a breeder is a good one, he cares about the fate of his dogs.

2. If he is a good breeder, then he generally knows more about dogs than the average dogman, who can't seem to put his own two dogs together well enough to create his own winners.

3. In knowing more about dogs than the average dogman, the good breeder tries to give good advice to the people who buy his dogs.

4. Unfortunately, most of the people who buy dogs (because they're not at the same level) ignore the good advice given and try to do things "their own way" ... usually recklessly ... and usually with the miserable results the breeder could see were going to happen.

5. As a result of this, the good breeder will become extremely angry a) that his good advice was ignored and b) because his good dog is now fucked up ... while the substandard dogman, who didn't listen to the good advice and who fucked up, will then have to decide if a) he wants to admit his mistake, learn from it, and never do it again or b) he wants to defend his stupidity, fail to learn and grow, and continue to be a bottom-dweller in the sport.

That has been my continual observations after breeding winners all over the world, for over 23 years, and watching the difference in results between good customers and shitty ones.

Thanks for the question,

Jack

When a the typical blowhard wins, he likes to take all the credit himself.
When the typical blowhard loses, he likes to put all the blame on the dog (and the breeder).

When a good dogman wins, he tends to thank the breeder for the good dog ... and the breeder tends to thank the good dogman for doing the dog right.

Funny how that works out ...

Jack

Give each as much credit as they deserve...i think its simple as that. If the breeder acquired two dogs from someone else, bred them together and voila ... passed them on... id say they deserve very little credit. Same with a man who didn't put much work into his dog and won a match.

Some breeders are half assed where as others bring out the HAMMER and go through them dogs to create very consistent results. Why would you not give credit to the later?

Same with those who match some walk them around the neighborhood and others hit the books finding the best diet, supplements, and training techniques. Schooling their dogs out right and taking the time to find the optimum weight. Once again the later deserves credit also.

Those who match need breeders and those who breed need folks to match their dogs. Its a mutualistic symbiotic relationship, two dissimilar organisms living together in a relationship that benefits both parties.

I picked these 3 posts as they represent how I feel and in my opinion are 100% truths. Especially Jacks 2nd post I quoted...