Very well said Jack. For some it is hard to understand the operative word in the phrase 'dead game' is dead, not game. EWO
Very well said Jack. For some it is hard to understand the operative word in the phrase 'dead game' is dead, not game. EWO
Exactly. And, if that level of gameness is the most treasured commodity in these dogs, then taking dogs that game to their death is (essentially) throwing the most treasured quality away with both hands.
Not a very good strategy for success, to say nothing of clean sportsmanship.
If I wasn't able to breed to the deeply-game dogs I started my yard with, I wouldn't have enjoyed the win/loss ratio I did as a breeder. I think founding a yard on deep gameness first, and then gradually breeding for more ability, is a better route to go (strategy-wise) than trying to breed high-ability curs together, and then trying to "add more gameness" ...
The former makes for more confidence in the trenches
Jack
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I agree, it is sad.
I don't know what is wrong with saying, "Hey, the little guy just doesn't have it today, but damn he's trying his best," and just picking up a game dog? Why does death have to be a part of fighting? Why does any match (except in rare instances) have to have a negative outcome? Folks, it's OKAY to pick up!
We watch and enjoy human fights all the time, and yet death is never a part of the outcome. We can pretty much tell who the winner is long before lives become at risk. This same truth applies to the dogs 99% of the time. Only rarely do 2 dead game dogs of equal ability face each other. And that is why the sporting concept of "a draw" was invented: for the human dogmen to protect their own game dogs from death.
Really, I have bred as many or more truly game dogs as anyone alive today, and I have never had to kill a dog in school to determine if it was "game enough" or not. I can tell within a few minutes if I like the dog's style, and by :20-:30 minutes if it can compete with the best in the world, and I have been able to determine this quite accurately for a very long time now. Yes, my dogs lose too, but you gotta whip one to join "The 10% Club" and actually beat one when the smoke clears. It will not be a cakewalk. And I have NEVER had to "leave any dog down," make it crawl, or kill a dog, to get this level of consistency.
So when people make excuses and talk about "their standards" and pretend that high standards = killing dogs, I call bullshit. That is just demented, sociopathic, psychotic abuse of game dogs, nothing more. I absolutely know this to be true. NO ONE needs to abuse dogs to prove gameness. NO ONE needs to allow dogs to get killed to determine quality, anymore than we "need" to do this in human fighting to determine quality. If a person can't see "quality" in a dog from just a normal, fairly hard roll then he simply is blind and doesn't have an eye for a dog. To say that, "Some dogs have to be killed," to keep the standard of winning alive is pure, fabricated bullshit. It is only what sick people spew to justify their sickness and abuse of game dogs.
Nothing more.Great post!
The best gamedog apparel on the net can be found here at:
http://scratchindog.com/
Great series of posts.
Leaving a dog down too long is part of my not being a fan of the scratch to continue. My belief that scratching is meant to allow a dog to quit (which every dog has the right to do so) and not meant to prove a dog is game is why I do not like the scratch to win stipulation. Sort of like little steps. If the dog wants to quit, let him, and then it is over. The dog that made his last scratch has done all that is asked, again, it is over. Allowing/making a game dog scratch just for a repeated display of his gameness after his opponent has checked up is extra....and extra is not what I am looking for at that point.
When the dog checks up, or is picked up, or I have picked up, in that split second in time all the energies should be switched from the match to the well being of the dog/dogs involved.
Great reference to boxing/MMA. There have been many fighters who would have on their own come out for the 16th/17th/18th round and potentially died either there, or shortly after from their beating. The only drawback to rules and rounds and judges is sometimes there are quick stoppages. Quick stoppages suck for the loser and the fans but the alternative is watching someone get beat to death. It is a no-brainer there. Like Jack said, pretty much no difference in the dogs. Most matches are less than an hour, (for any number of reasons) and in most matches the winner is clear 30-40-50 minutes. (I agree some great stories have been told about dogs who come from the bottom and win after an hour plus dragging, but they are the exception, not the rule.)
After a clear winner has been displayed (in lots of cases) the losing camp leaves the dog down because they either do not know any better, they do not care, they are hoping against hope the other dog will quit on top to save and save their money. For me, and it is only a personal opinion, this is like first cousins to scratching to win. The dog is doing more than he was originally asked to do, and I am not a big fan of that. EWO (sorry for the length)
Great posts
@ Jack, this is something i quoted from another topic.
I will write that this is by no means meant to offend anyone, so that this is clear..lol. Not saying getting damaged, bitten on ugly spots or being in pain is the only reason for a dog to stop. But i wonder how dogs that hardly ever get bit themselves can proof (proof to you) they are game for real? I think dogs or a line of dogs who hardly get bit and almost always win a scratching contest is just great and more then i could wish for. But i think it says more about other ability's then gameness. Or as they say "game enough to win"Therefore, although I stopped competing, I was able to continuously succeed as a breeder because I understood the Cajun Rules as well as the basic rules of fighting, which is "Protect yourself at all times."
To me, any dog that didn't have a high degree of athleticism + the sense to keep itself from "getting bit back" was a loser dog to me. A lot of people may "be happy" watching 2 dogs "swap it out," but the reality is such dogs are stupid palookas and not World Class animals in my book. A World Class dog does all the biting without getting bit much in return. Even if he's a killer, to my way of thinking a truly good killer is still killing in such a way as to position himself out of harm's way.
After having schooled dogs with people from coast-to-coast, and getting feedback from several hundred matches, it is my firm conviction that most people accept dogs that aren't really all that athletic or bright ... they're mainly "rough and predictable" ... and they're not too game, either. Because that's another thing I have always enjoyed more than the average guy in dogs is some f***ing incredibly game dogs. 9.5x out of 10, if any match with one of my dogs goes over the hour mark, it's the Vise-Grip dog that's going to win on the scratching. Very rarely do my dogs ever lose a scratching contest ... which, essentially is what a Cajun Rules contest is ... and that has been proven time-and-time-again.
So winning consistently isn't just about "you being happy," it's about really knowing fighting strategy in general. It may "make you happy" to watch one-dimensional stifle dogs driving for the back end, but I promise you will never achieve a 9x/10 win record choosing dogs of this style to continuously breed for. You may get an occasional ace that can make that work, but you will be losing (and counting to 10) more often than winning. Further, producing dogs that win consistently goes beyond knowing what a winning style looks like, it's also about selecting the right dogs (and family) that display this winning style to breed together, and then continuously making the right choices as to how to sustain (and improve upon) the gene pool you're working with to keep it that way (or improve upon it).
Standing by ready for the internet spanking,...here goes.
I do not doubt the 87% success rate nor the 95% game rate when just factoring in the dogs. My questions have always been how you found 8.7 out of every 10 persons that were knowledgeable enough to allow 9.5 out of every 10 dogs sold/placed/produced to be proven game without being &^%ked up along the way. Over the years I have seen lots of ignorance (ignorance being just not knowing any better) and stupidity. I always wondered about the screening process.
And I say this because I have always believed across the board the dogs as whole are far better than they are given credit for because so many are crippled by their individual owners. I basically have more faith in the dogs than I do in man, sad, but true. (And I apologize for straying off topic). EWO
I know my dogs are game "for real" because 1) they are founded upon extreme gameness, coming in HIGH LITTER PERCENTAGES, and 2) the times when my dogs have lost, it has invariably been absolutely game to the core.
When Silverback's half-brother Energizer lost to Wonderboy's Ch Pup Pup (a candidate for dog of the year), Energizer went 2:45 (which was longer than all Pup Pup's other matches put together), and he crawled, rolled, flopped to get over there on his last scratch. I had 10 different dogmen from the Northeast call me when it was over saying that he was the gamest dog they had ever seen in their lives (Brooklyn Knights, LeFonze, Latino Ray, etc.).
When Blackrock Kennels' El Nazi won BIS in Mexico on a huge card, he got his entire face/muzzle/upper palate eat off to the eyes, and still never stopped trying. I had Evolution's brother Atown (whom I can't stand and who can't stand me) email me saying that dog was the gamest he ever saw in his life--and took so much abuse it made Atown question his involvement in the dog game.
When Eloheem's Loki was matched into Gr Ch Chevy dying of lymphatic cancer, he got totally outclassed and was done by :40 ... and yet lasted almost to the 2-hour mark, taking Chevy longer than any dog ever had on nothing but the fact Loki wouldn't stop living or scratching. In fact, Gr Ch Chevy turned from a down and dying dog because he just couldn't kill Loki.
When my average Pretty Boy was matched into Rockbottom and MPits, at only 16 months of age, and had never even been bumped, let alone schooled, he still won in 2:42 on nothing but heart, and again scratched to a standing ovation and had the owner of Fastlane Registry running home to get his med box to save him he was so impressed with PB's gameness.
I mean, I could give you a roster of when the average dogs of mine got matched, they STILL win on nothing but guts, rugged durability, and absolute gameness ... and even when they lose, they *always* take whatever dog they're with a longer distance than any other dog they faced. And since they have consistently done this for two decades, I am pretty confident that my dogs will outlast and outscratch the competition damned near every time ... and if they can't win ... they'll still be the gamest dogs that opponent has ever seen and will take their mutts longer than any other opponent ever has.
So when the talented dogs of mine get matched, unless you have a truly extraordinary animal, you won't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating them, and it's not going to be "my" dogs losing on the scratch line
Jack
Yea i see, so its actually the less talented and the dogs who weren't 100% ready to match, that shows you what the most talented dogs have as a back up
To bad you stopped breeding.
Exactly. That and the fact I made it my business to breed to exceptionally game dogs, from exceptionally-high-percentage litters, as my foundation.Yea i see, so its actually the less talented and the dogs who weren't 100% ready to match, that shows you what the most talented dogs have as a back up.
I miss breeding dogs, mainly because of the dogs themselves, but I don't miss the stress of having a big yard ... nor the aggravation of hearing of people doing my little dogs wrong (feeding them shit food, making spot weight, etc.). There have been some really good folks who've gotten their hands on them though, and I do miss hearing the stories of how their dogs are progressing. What I miss the most is just watching world class athletes, the precision of their movements, and the excitement/eagerness on their faces when they're doing their thing.Yea i see, so its actually the less talented and the dogs who weren't 100% ready to match, that shows you what the most talented dogs have as a back up
To bad you stopped breeding.
Thank you
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
