Asking higher prices ..Tought i opend this topic, to get a debate going.
Asking higher prices ..Tought i opend this topic, to get a debate going.
Well we can debate, not sure about what. I'm a believer that a man's price is his price and just as the buyer has an option to pay or keep walking the man with the merchandise has the option to set his price where he wants. I feel you pay for what you want. I mean you might spend $300 10x to get some cheap pups and the guy even throws you a few pups so you only spent $3k to get between 10-15 dogs and you might have 10-15 turds. You could easily spend $1500-3500 on a pup and get a turd. I would say it's up to the person purchasing, if the stock is proven then your chances of getting something quality is very high. That $1500 pup or dog might turn out to be the best investment you ever made and make you back tens of thousands and he might be a dud. Each dog has opportunity but when you talk about "proof" then its world's apart. The guy charging 1500 might have great success and others have great success with his stock. The guy charging 300 might have success but others might not have the same success, does that mean his dogs arent worth it? No he just might be a better dogman or able to get more out of his dogs then anybody else. It is an option to buy or not to, so how can you bash.
Originally Posted by CrazyRed
Good post.
The bottom line is a man can charge whatever he wants to charge, and people can pay it or not.
What might be "worth it" to one guy might not be to another. In my opinion, it is ALWAYS better to pay a little more for "expertise" than it is to try to save money buying from inexperience.
When I breed my own dogs, down from the same line I have been working with for 20-something years, and consistently producing high-percentages of winners/producers each time ... and I personally know every dog in the pedigree, what it has (what it lacks) and have a feel for what I am doing ... I would "like" to think that I have a better idea of what the heck I am going to get out of my pups than some guy who just bought 2 mix-bred dogs and bred them together
I am absolutely 100% confident that my pups are going to be within "the genetic ballpark" of what I am wanting to get MUCH more frequently, reliably, and consistently than some guy breeding 2 dogs he knows nothing about, genetically. I would bet my life on that. And I will damned sure be charging more for this genetic certainty I have with what I am doing ... and I will collect it too ... than someone playing guessing games with his "crosses" that he's experimenting with because "it looks good on paper" (to him, anyway).
I understand that not every pup comes out as planned. But I also understand that pups that are truly planned, and linebred on prepotent animals, come out closer to those plans (much more frequently) than will a hodgepodge of unrelated stuff being stuck together for the hell of it.
Any person with a couple of decades of successful breedings behind him, all back down from the same stock he's always been successful with, will simply have better odds of getting what he wants day-in and day-out than the average bandwagon-jumper will ... and anyone who doesn't believe, or understand, this simply knows nothing about breeding or genetics.
Jack
I would say it is Basic Economics 101. Although the seller can set the selling price only the buyer can dictate the value/worth (dollar amount) of the object being sold. He simply does that making the purchase.
Value is a lot like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. It only takes one buyer to 'justify' the seller's price, regardless if the masses think the opposite. The buyer has the option to meet the seller's asking price, negotiate or walk away. That process determines the dollar value of any object being sold.
In the dogs the higher the percentage of successes within a family/line/strain/breeder usually up that dollar amount. That dollar amount is always kept in check by the buyer.
If there were a standard, a hard line or solid measuring stick that was not relative or subjective it would be easier to say "X" amount of money should get "X" amount of dog. Unfortunately it is not that simple. Again the buyer is the 'check' in the process.
A slightly better topic would be to offer up some of the standards or measuring sticks people use to justify why they ask a certain amount and then couple that with those same standards as why someone would be willing to pay. Just an example (and sorry Jack, its your board, so you get the guinea pig role)
If I were looking for a Poncho dog I would be willing to go to the source for said Poncho dog and that would be Vise-Grip. Factoring in the family, the ancestry, the successes over time, the personal commitment and the percentages I would pay more for that Poncho dog. On the flip side, this Poncho dog's parent's siblings were sold as puppies and later bred. I would not pay the same for that puppy, although the breedings were the same/similar. Why? Maybe Vise Grip would have bred them a different way, maybe not even at all, but that is where I see value. The source.
So, for me, going to the source would be a factor in paying more, or justifying the seller's price by making the purchase. EWO
Another insightful, intelligent post by EWO.
I see people breeding dogs of mine, that I would not breed together, all the time.
One of the primary things I look for in the dogs I keep is speed and athleticism. I can spot the athletes in a litter at a very early age. Their "stance" is almost always the same: very tight front paws, held close together, with the back legs spread apart a bit. They are light on their feet, they move with a clearly-superior grace, and these dogs just beam with precision, poise, and balance. I have had many well-schooled old-timers tell me they love the "stance" of my dogs overall ... because they see what I see in them.
And yet some of my dogs just aren't athletes. A few will come out with their elbows out, splayed front feet, or whatever ... and I will see people inbreeding on these unathletic dopes ... and I just don't understand WTH they're thinking. Sure, you can "use" a less-than-stellar athlete, if they're game (breeding back toward some kind of athleticism) ... but you don't inbreed on an unathletic dolt!
Anyway, if the key to breeding is selection ... then I would feel FAR more comfortable spending more money with a person who has consistently maintained quality in his line through repeatedly-good selections ... than I ever would buying "a cheap pup" from some bloke who has no idea what that really means
Jack
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That sums it up pretty much. A higher price on a well bred animal coming off a well bred family coming from a breeder with consitent success with the family of dog, then yes a higher price is fine as it is this man life work made available. The problem is as Jack stated someone breeding two sub par dogs and charging high prices based on someone else hard work. That is happening all to often now a days but its up to the buyer to decide to pay or not plan simple. I cant put a value on someone else's dog, i can only choose to buy it or not its really that simple. Another thing people dont realize is how much it costs to maintain a healthy yard of bulldogs so that is factored into the price of a pup also. Yis Ole Man
Limey as you started this justifiyingstud fees , i would like to ask you to justify the stud fee for kingpin and the overall cost that i estimate a prospective buyer would have to end up paying at least $6000 once they got thier female back from you without a gurantee of pups as breedings whether surgical or live dont always work so even if you give a refund on the stud fee , there would still be more than $3000 in other costs such as shipping vet fees which would not be refunded im sure .
The normal way most folks get their dogs bred is within their own country by either driving to the male or mybe nowadays they have fresh or frozen semen shipped , with the frozen costing a lot more as the shipping is expensive as the liquid nitrogen container has to be shipped both ways , but most folks i believe still do it the old fashioned way and take their female even if it means a long drive there and back , but the costs for fuel and maybe an overnight stay in a motel might add $300 to tha overall cost so its not to compare with what it wouyld cost to breed under your rules to kingpin.
The other thing i think we would like to know , is how you come to a price of $2.700 for the stud fee, as the dog is not a gr ch and evn if you can ask what you like , i believe there should be some overall reason as to why kingpin has such a high stud fee for a dog that has never done anything to merit the price, and if breeding to an aligator dog is what someone wants to do ,then in the usa htere are still some excellent and old aligator lines jsut as good and probably better and from working dogs that are no more than $1000 to $1500 and that goes for many ch and gr ch dogs from many other bloodlines also.
I know there are owners out there of some of the more popular winners that have charged very high stud fees , but they arec few and far between , with most working dogs falling within and much lower stud fee range than yours , and without the ristrictions you impose on who can breed to kingpin which means only the usa and canada or possibly the latin american countries but not hte whole of europe east or west , so that means no one can just drive to you and take a normal breeding they must incurr these extra costs on top of the stud fee which in itself is not realsitic even if the dog was a ch which he is not .
I feel that if a dogs stud fee is so high especially for a non working dog , then there should be some realistic price on the stud fee , as there are many well bred dogs which can be bred to for less than half yuor asking price and with minimal other costs to your main market which under yuor rules would be the usa and canada by and large.
Why you feel knigpin is worht more than $1000 stud fee would be nice to know , i cant beleive you will say becasue of how he is bred , as there are many other better bred dogs than kingpin with reasonable stud fees , so i am curious to know your reason for your fee, especially when the econmy is bad and like many ohter things in times like these people dont have the kind of money your are expecting them to pay to breed to your dog .
The appox total cost i feel would be broken down like this and i feel it would be a mintotal and could be as much as $2k more depending on shiping and vets fees which are not in the buyers control .
STUD FEE $2.7K
crate/rabiesshot/microchip vet cert $300
shipping both ways between $2k and $4k
vets fees min $1/2k
min total 6k could be as much as $7/8k
For the full advert and stud fee for knigpin you need to go to bulldogs at stud and look there .
Projectx: settings, ignore list, add Limey Kennels and you get a nice message that says.. "This message is hidden because Limey Kennels is on your ignore list."
Projectx I do not have to justify myself. i was asking the forum members the question. you might whant to respond to the question.. and we take it from there
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