stud dogs brood bitches and dog prizes in general. and the ""Justification"" in

[The Old Timer.]

A few guys I knew always set real high stud fees on one or two of there dogs, at present I do the same with one dog I have now, some times you just like to keep the years / or a life time of your hard work to your self, some guys would take the service of the dog if they got it for a few hundred $, but when you set a real high price you don't fall out with guys by refusing them the stud, the stud dog is there but at a price they wont pay. to be honest if limeys stud dog was a producing dog and sires large litters of pups I myself would pay that fee, if its some thing I wanted, the bottom line if you paid 2700 for the service, and you got 10 pups or more in the litter, each pup would cost 270 or less, i think limey is correct in putting any price he wants on his dog, its a take it or leave it situation, on the other hand when you set a real high stud fee you or letting others believe you have some thing special - it makes a good sales pitch , and gets guys talking about your stud dog or line of dogs you keep, and then an old saying comes to my head also a " fool and his money are easy parted."

[projectx]

A few guys I knew always set real high stud fees on one or two of there dogs, at present I do the same with one dog I have now, some times you just like to keep the years / or a life time of your hard work to your self, some guys would take the service of the dog if they got it for a few hundred $, but when you set a real high price you don't fall out with guys by refusing them the stud, the stud dog is there but at a price they wont pay. to be honest if limeys stud dog was a producing dog and sires large litters of pups I myself would pay that fee, if its some thing I wanted, the bottom line if you paid 2700 for the service, and you got 10 pups or more in the litter, each pup would cost 270 or less, i think limey is correct in putting any price he wants on his dog, its a take it or leave it situation, on the other hand when you set a real high stud fee you or letting others believe you have some thing special - it makes a good sales pitch , and gets guys talking about your stud dog or line of dogs you keep, and then an old saying comes to my head also a " fool and his money are easy parted."

Hi oldtimer ,i dont disagree with anyone setting a high price for a stud fee, and you mentioned that some guys want to keep a lifetime of there work to themselves or at least set a high stud fee , but i think that an average stud fee if you just look at the stud offers on this forum and on others is between $500 to $1000 maybe $1500 and some of those are well bred dogs who have either a hunt record or a producing record or even both, yes there some higher but they all have record in one or both departments but the average is between the csots i mentioned on the whole.

I think that limeys kingpin does not fall into the category of dog to demand the $2.700 stud fee which seems to me on the very high side, and thats wihtout the extra costs involved to anyone wanting a breeding under limeys rules, as i have outlined an appoximate cost of betwwen $6000 and maybe upto $8000 which you may not have seen , which would make your cost per pup theory of a litter of ten pups rising to between $600 and $800 per pup, but that is only if the female actuall gets pregnant and both natrual breedings and surgical inseminations are not always a gurantee of getting pups , so the reality is that to spend between $6000 and maybe $8000 and maybe not even get your female pregnant ,which could happen , and then have the hassle of getting your money back as by this time your female would have been shipped back to you so its not like you can just get in your car and drive to get another breeding for free is it.
The reality is that untill any female has her pups we can all make scenarios as what could be the case, so to me its just a case of untill the pups hit the ground its all speculation as to what is value for money, and i dont think im being hard on limey saying that i feel that his stud fee alone without even adding the extra costs to a buyer is just way over the top for his dogs achievments as yet.

I think maybe you had a good point in that some people are salesmen and by setting a high price on a dog might make newbies think they need to get some of it, but im not into that kind of dogman , thats the kind i stay away from, especially if the dog has yet to do anything to merit the high stud fee in the first place, that to me is the type of thing a peddler does .

The other point is that if we all never let out any dogs none of us would ever have had any dont you think, like i said before its a nonsense to think that even if you think you have something so special that no one else can have it , by the sheer fact the you yourself must have got them from someone in the first place means that to think like that is futile, as no one man has a monopoly on any bloodline ,not even limey ,and they never had not even before the world got on the internet which opened up to them stud dogs and bloodlines to anyone around the world to buy , so whehter its eli or aligator or mayfield or redboy etc etc and many other much sought after bloodlines , some of which are not in high numbers like others are , to think that any one man or kennel can have a monopoly on that bloodline is wrong , as there is always more than one man who will have that line no matter how low in numbers they are or diifcult to get , there has always been more than one man involved in any one line of dogs , that is how they keep the line going in a pure or tight bred family , into the future ,and the death of any line is when one man is in total control of it ,and thankfully as in the case of limeys kingpin to use as an example , the aligator line is still being bred and actually in a more pure family than even limeys , just like other hard to get blood of yesteryear , its just like anything else , you have to do your research eventhough you may have been looking for that stud or female from a bloodline that today seems extinct , i have found that with a little paticience you can still find bloodlines that most of us would give our right nut for to have as a breeding pool today.

The ohter thing you metioned that i agree with is that a fool and his money are easily parted, and if anyone can justify to themselves the overall cost of a getting a breeding to limeys kingpin, especially if your in the usa where like i said there are many good tight aligator dogs being bred , were if you get a stud or pup you may pay $1000 $1500 , then to me anyone taking a stud from kingpin , or any other dog that would cost them that kind of overall price ,when they have as good or better at home for a fraction of the cost , then they truely are a fool who maybe needs to be parted with his or her money just so they learn a valuable lesson from it , as sometimes thats the only way a person can learn when the get their ass burned.

[Officially Retired]

I think that limeys kingpin does not fall into the category of dog to demand the $2.700 stud fee which seems to me on the very high side, and thats wihtout the extra costs involved to anyone wanting a breeding under limeys rules, as i have outlined an appoximate cost of betwwen $6000 and maybe upto $8000 which you may not have seen , which would make your cost per pup theory of a litter of ten pups rising to between $600 and $800 per pup, but that is only if the female actuall gets pregnant and both natrual breedings and surgical inseminations are not always a gurantee of getting pups , so the reality is that to spend between $6000 and maybe $8000 and maybe not even get your female pregnant ,which could happen , and then have the hassle of getting your money back as by this time your female would have been shipped back to you so its not like you can just get in your car and drive to get another breeding for free is it.
The reality is that untill any female has her pups we can all make scenarios as what could be the case, so to me its just a case of untill the pups hit the ground its all speculation as to what is value for money, and i dont think im being hard on limey saying that i feel that his stud fee alone without even adding the extra costs to a buyer is just way over the top for his dogs achievments as yet.

I am not coming to anyone's defense, per se, but my questions are these:

Why do you care what Limey does, and how (in any way) does it affect you?

Jack

[projectx]

I am not coming to anyone's defense, per se, but my questions are these:

Why do you care what Limey does, and how (in any way) does it affect you?

Jack

Hi jack , this thread is about the cost of stud fees and the justification of them , or at least the discussion as to what is expected from prospective stud dogs etc and i think my posts about the cost in the case of limeys kingpin is a reasonable one ,given not just the stud fee but the very high extra costs that would be incurred going forward with it.

You ask me what do i care what limey does , and how does it affect me , which seems to me to be a defense of limey and i must assume that you feel that his stud fee and overall cost to breed to his dog which has no record in any department as yet is a fair and normal cost ,and requires no one asking limey or any other stud dog owner who expects any prospective taker of a high stud fee to their expensive stud dog to ever ask them why they are asking such a high stud fee comapred to the normal fees that i have stated before in other posts of between $500 to$1500 comapred to limeys base stud fee of $2.700 plus the extra costs , especially for a dog that has yet to prove itself in any way , and that you feel my question as to why he feels the stud fee and extra costs associated with it are questions that should never be asked by anyone and to just be accepted without question ,which would seem a foolish thing to do in any walk of life when making a purchase including the dogs.

I hope i have assumed incorrectly in your feeling that way , as i would have though that you of all people would also want to have some balance in this field of stud fees and costs, and like any other product we can buy , the costs are normally associsted with a products quality , and in the case of bulldogs that normally means a stud fee is relative to what the stud dog has done in either of the two fields we tend to feel merits some acknowledgement in the game , of which as far as i can see and unless limey tells us otherwise his dog has yet to achieve anything in either of those two fields as yet to merit even the normal range top end stud fee of $1500 let alone $2.700 plus the extras . Yes he can ask what he likes , and maybe instead of defending him he should maybe defend himself if you or he feel my question is so unfair on him ,in so far as it would be of interest to know why he feels his dog and the very high overal cost to take a breeding to his dog is somnething we should be thinking about doing , rather than keeping quiet ,which seems to me to say that he cant really give an answer as to why the cost should be so high apart form the fact that it is very high and just keep quiet and dont ask awkward questions.

I myself jack like to fight my own battles ,and you will never find me pm ing you to complain about another member who posts or says very normal things about me , and asking you to do sometihng about it, as some people have a name for that already on other forums , so much so that they have been booted out of them for always crying to the mods about other people as they cant answer basic questions when put to them, and the forums just had enough of that guy and told him to go away and grow some balls instead of always crying to them to help him, i will never do that and as i say maybe limey should give us an insight into the stud fee for his dog, maybe we can understand why , rather than have you defend him and ask me the questions you asked me, i think maybe asking limey the same questions i asked him and others have would have made more sense given the extreme cost anyone would have had to incurr taking a breeding to his dog comapred to other much more acknowleged dogs at a much lower cost in stud fee alone , would have been a question lots of us would like to,know. Had he asked a stud fee within the normal range , then i would never have said a word ,albeit still very costly as to the extra costs , but at least it would have been a stud fee with reasonable bounds ,which quite frankly his is not at the moment and im surprised you dont feel it in some way needs some kind of explanation on limeys part , but you ask me something about why im asking limey about his stud fee, mmm doesnt seem to make sense to me unless your taking sides ,which im sure your not jack, as in the interests of knowledge an answer from limey himself would im sure enlighten us all in one way or another .

[Officially Retired]

Hi jack , this thread is about the cost of stud fees and the justification of them , or at least the discussion as to what is expected from prospective stud dogs etc and i think my posts about the cost in the case of limeys kingpin is a reasonable one ,given not just the stud fee but the very high extra costs that would be incurred going forward with it.

Hi Project X;

Honestly, I don't need you to recapitulate "what the thread is about" for me

You may think your going on-and-on-and-on about the cost of Limey's stud is "reasonable," but IMO it would be more reasonable just to move on and not pay for something you think is too high.

You sound more hostile than reasonable.

You ask me what do i care what limey does , and how does it affect me , which seems to me to be a defense of limey and i must assume that you feel that his stud fee and overall cost to breed to his dog which has no record in any department as yet is a fair and normal cost ,and requires no one asking limey or any other stud dog owner who expects any prospective taker of a high stud fee to their expensive stud dog to ever ask them why they are asking such a high stud fee comapred to the normal fees that i have stated before in other posts of between $500 to$1500 comapred to limeys base stud fee of $2.700 plus the extra costs , especially for a dog that has yet to prove itself in any way , and that you feel my question as to why he feels the stud fee and extra costs associated with it are questions that should never be asked by anyone and to just be accepted without question ,which would seem a foolish thing to do in any walk of life when making a purchase including the dogs.

I find it amusing that you didn't answer my question, yet you demand that Limey answer yours

I am defending Limey's position mainly because I think your attack is hostile and needless.

Again, if you don't like Limey's price, simply don't pay for it. That is what rational, reasonable people do. Me, I see studs all the time that have shitty structure, pedigrees I would never have bred, possess traits I would never want to have, with splayed feet, tongues hanging out like they're going to collapse from exhaustion from just standing there, and I don't write big long posts about "why" I would never pay to breed to that POS. Instead, I just move on to something else.

I also see stud dogs that look interesting, but never bother to breed to them. Mostly because I am happy with what I have (or had, back when I was breeding dogs).

Your greatest blunder in thinking is the belief that Limey's dog is "unproven." I have heard nimrods tell this same thing to me about "my" studs, too, back when I was breeding dogs. I have heard so many people make comments on something that they have never seen go with "their" eyes ... and these idiots believe that their eyes are ALL eyes ... but they're not. They think because "they" haven't seen something go, that means that "I" haven't either. I mean, they really think that I am breeding something "unproven" ... just because it hasn't been proven "to them." As if I give a shit about "them" in my decision-making. Time and again, I have heard the same shit spewed at me, by people whose dogs (and opinions on dogs) couldn't kiss my ass ... and these people likewise operate under the insanity that just because "they" don't know how good my dog is somehow means I don't know how good my dog is

The real truth is you have no freaking idea how good Limey's dog is, or isn't. Period.
Maybe this dog proved a shitload to Limey. Maybe this dog is the best damned dog he's ever seen in his life, and he is pricing it accordingly.
Or maybe the dog is an untouched wonder with no ability. I don't know. You don't know.

But at the end of the day, the word "proven" is a meaningless word in your context. I could go on for pages about dogs mine have faced that were "proven" ... "proven fastlane winners" from "proven ROM" producers ... and yet my dogs whipped their ass, and stopped these "great proven dogs" cold ... all the while my dogs were out of studs and bitches that "no one else" has seen but me. So, really, all of that so-called "proof" doesn't mean shit.

I hope i have assumed incorrectly in your feeling that way , as i would have though that you of all people would also want to have some balance in this field of stud fees and costs, and like any other product we can buy , the costs are normally associsted with a products quality , and in the case of bulldogs that normally means a stud fee is relative to what the stud dog has done in either of the two fields we tend to feel merits some acknowledgement in the game , of which as far as i can see and unless limey tells us otherwise his dog has yet to achieve anything in either of those two fields as yet to merit even the normal range top end stud fee of $1500 let alone $2.700 plus the extras . Yes he can ask what he likes , and maybe instead of defending him he should maybe defend himself if you or he feel my question is so unfair on him ,in so far as it would be of interest to know why he feels his dog and the very high overal cost to take a breeding to his dog is somnething we should be thinking about doing , rather than keeping quiet ,which seems to me to say that he cant really give an answer as to why the cost should be so high apart form the fact that it is very high and just keep quiet and dont ask awkward questions.

You a$$ume incorrectly.

I don't care what anyone else charges for a stud fee.

I will never breed to anyone else's studs, but my own. The only exception would be to a trusted dogman-friend, whose dog I had seen with my own eyes, and/or whose opinion on a dog I respected. And I would invariably be offered to breed to the dog for free. But I would still rather breed to my own stud dog 99x out of 100.

I myself jack like to fight my own battles ,and you will never find me pm ing you to complain about another member who posts or says very normal things about me , and asking you to do sometihng about it, as some people have a name for that already on other forums , so much so that they have been booted out of them for always crying to the mods about other people as they cant answer basic questions when put to them, and the forums just had enough of that guy and told him to go away and grow some balls instead of always crying to them to help him, i will never do that and as i say maybe limey should give us an insight into the stud fee for his dog, maybe we can understand why , rather than have you defend him and ask me the questions you asked me, i think maybe asking limey the same questions i asked him and others have would have made more sense given the extreme cost anyone would have had to incurr taking a breeding to his dog comapred to other much more acknowleged dogs at a much lower cost in stud fee alone , would have been a question lots of us would like to,know. Had he asked a stud fee within the normal range , then i would never have said a word ,albeit still very costly as to the extra costs , but at least it would have been a stud fee with reasonable bounds ,which quite frankly his is not at the moment and im surprised you dont feel it in some way needs some kind of explanation on limeys part , but you ask me something about why im asking limey about his stud fee, mmm doesnt seem to make sense to me unless your taking sides ,which im sure your not jack, as in the interests of knowledge an answer from limey himself would im sure enlighten us all in one way or another .

You have a serious boundary disorder. You not only think Limey should "do as you do," you now think that I should pick my fights "as you would" too. This is a recurring insanity on your part, thinking that everyone else should "do as you do," so let me clarify two things for you:

1) I don't care what "you" do; I will fight in whatever battles I choose and I don't need your permission to enter in to any fray, ever.
2) Limey doesn't care about what "you" think stud fees will be either. He has the right to charge what he wants on stud services to his stud, period.

In the end, I will agree that all of your "reasons" for stud fees being a certain price ARE reasons ... but they are only reasons for YOU not to breed to Limey's stud dog. Nothing more. If someone is into Limey's bloodline, and trusts his opinion on a dog, then they will breed to the dog. And guess what? Limey can also choose to lower his fee for the right person too.

Or, everyone may agree with you, and Limey may never get a single person to pay the money, and therefore he will never breed outside his yard.

But NONE of this has anything to do with you or your opinion. The only way it affects you is if you let it.

If you charge what you want for your studs, and pay only what you're willing to pay for an outside stud, you will have a much healthier outlook than lamenting page-after-page over some stud whose price point is higher than what you want to pay.

Jack

.

[R2L]

I stopped caring for quiet some time now. I think no one needs to justify anything.

The only thing i find shameful once in a while is that well bred pups are being sold to people with money regardless who or what they are. This is also none of my business but if i would let something go in the first place, i would personally rather give a pup for free to someone who i think can make me proud then cashing x000 $

[Officially Retired]

I stopped caring for quiet some time now. I think no one needs to justify anything.

Agreed.

The only thing i find shameful once in a while is that well bred pups are being sold to people with money regardless who or what they are. This is also none of my business but if i would let something go in the first place, i would personally rather give a pup for free to someone who i think can make me proud then cashing x000 $

The most shameful thing in the world is worrying about what other people do.

When you sell dogs for a living, money comes first.

That said, I have turned down $$$ from people I knew were pure scum, but have sold dogs to all kinds of dogmen: from total beginners to some of the winningest kennels out there. Almost none of them can keep a dog alive for life, no matter who they are. But a few have. Any already good dogman who gets dogs from me uses them for breeding into their own line. Many beginners buy dogs from me to breed them and develop their own lines too. I would rather sell a dog for breeding and building than to be used as a toy.

Invariably, time-and-again, the best buyers are relative (not total) beginners ... who've learned enough of the ropes to have some sense ... but who still haven't "made it" ... but they buy with truly good intentions and then they get out there and whip top dogmen with the dogs they get from me (or off of the breedings they made using my dogs).

Jack

[R2L]

You have to be strong to grant someone one of your dogs and see them fuck up or use them as models/coachpatatos

[Officially Retired]

You have to be strong to grant someone one of your dogs and see them fuck up or use them as models/coachpatatos

Everyone has fucked up. The difference is, was it a mistake, or intentional recklessness.

That said, I would rather see someone use one of my dogs as a "model" or a stud dog ... so at least the dog has a good life ... than see someone fuck it up, feed it shit food, or keep it in lousy conditions.

The truth is, if I didn't sell dogs, I would never have been able to breed as many generations-deep into my own line as I have ... never have been able to do as many experimental breedings as I have ... never have learned as much as I have about the truths and myths about line-/inbreeding first hand ... never have seen my dogs kick as much ass all over the world as I have ... nor been able to becomee the expert on breeding as I am now.

If I kept every pup I bred, from youth to old age, I would hardly have any breeding experience at all.

So there is a flipside to everything ....

Jack

[projectx]

Hi Project X;

Honestly, I don't need you to recapitulate "what the thread is about" for me

You may think your going on-and-on-and-on about the cost of Limey's stud is "reasonable," but IMO it would be more reasonable just to move on and not pay for something you think is too high.

You sound more hostile than reasonable.





I find it amusing that you didn't answer my question, yet you demand that Limey answer yours

I am defending Limey's position mainly because I think your attack is hostile and needless.

Again, if you don't like Limey's price, simply don't pay for it. That is what rational, reasonable people do. Me, I see studs all the time that have shitty structure, pedigrees I would never have bred, possess traits I would never want to have, with splayed feet, tongues hanging out like they're going to collapse from exhaustion from just standing there, and I don't write big long posts about "why" I would never pay to breed to that POS. Instead, I just move on to something else.

I also see stud dogs that look interesting, but never bother to breed to them. Mostly because I am happy with what I have (or had, back when I was breeding dogs).

Your greatest blunder in thinking is the belief that Limey's dog is "unproven." I have heard nimrods tell this same thing to me about "my" studs, too, back when I was breeding dogs. I have heard so many people make comments on something that they have never seen go with "their" eyes ... and these idiots believe that their eyes are ALL eyes ... but they're not. They think because "they" haven't seen something go, that means that "I" haven't either. I mean, they really think that I am breeding something "unproven" ... just because it hasn't been proven "to them." As if I give a shit about "them" in my decision-making. Time and again, I have heard the same shit spewed at me, by people whose dogs (and opinions on dogs) couldn't kiss my ass ... and these people likewise operate under the insanity that just because "they" don't know how good my dog is somehow means I don't know how good my dog is

The real truth is you have no freaking idea how good Limey's dog is, or isn't. Period.
Maybe this dog proved a shitload to Limey. Maybe this dog is the best damned dog he's ever seen in his life, and he is pricing it accordingly.
Or maybe the dog is an untouched wonder with no ability. I don't know. You don't know.

But at the end of the day, the word "proven" is a meaningless word in your context. I could go on for pages about dogs mine have faced that were "proven" ... "proven fastlane winners" from "proven ROM" producers ... and yet my dogs whipped their ass, and stopped these "great proven dogs" cold ... all the while my dogs were out of studs and bitches that "no one else" has seen but me. So, really, all of that so-called "proof" doesn't mean shit.





You a$$ume incorrectly.

I don't care what anyone else charges for a stud fee.

I will never breed to anyone else's studs, but my own. The only exception would be to a trusted dogman-friend, whose dog I had seen with my own eyes, and/or whose opinion on a dog I respected. And I would invariably be offered to breed to the dog for free. But I would still rather breed to my own stud dog 99x out of 100.





You have a serious boundary disorder. You not only think Limey should "do as you do," you now think that I should pick my fights "as you would" too. This is a recurring insanity on your part, thinking that everyone else should "do as you do," so let me clarify two things for you:

1) I don't care what "you" do; I will fight in whatever battles I choose and I don't need your permission to enter in to any fray, ever.
2) Limey doesn't care about what "you" think stud fees will be either. He has the right to charge what he wants on stud services to his stud, period.

In the end, I will agree that all of your "reasons" for stud fees being a certain price ARE reasons ... but they are only reasons for YOU not to breed to Limey's stud dog. Nothing more. If someone is into Limey's bloodline, and trusts his opinion on a dog, then they will breed to the dog. And guess what? Limey can also choose to lower his fee for the right person too.

Or, he may never get a single person to pay the money and therefore will never breed outside his yard.

But NONE of this has anything to do with you or your opinion. The only way it affects you is if you let it.

If you charge what you want for your studs, and pay only what you're willing to pay for an outside stud, you will have a much healthier outlook than lamenting page-after-page over some stud whose price point is higher than what you want to pay.

Jack

.

Hi jack , i think i answered your questions about my reasons, and i also said in my psots have said that limey and any other person can ask what they like for a stud fee, but when as in the case of limeys its seems an unreasonably high amount for an as yet un known perfomer /producer if at all outside of limeys yard ,then i feel it does make a hell of a difference to any stud fee asked for.

I dont disagree with you that a dog can be the best performer producer in the world , but if limeys was either , as in most cases he would make a point of telling it as is his stlye to do, as he is never shy in telling us of his dogs acomplishments and the only acopmlishment he said about his kingpin dog in his ad was that gary hammonds said hes the best looking dog hes seen in 10 years , so it would seem that any acomplishments are only know inside his own yard if any.

I thought that you like myself and many others who over the years have talked to other men and friends about dogs, when you have what could be described as a high dollar stud fee or even high dollar pups which as in limeys stud are outside the normal stud fees for most dogs and especially as yet un proven dogs , at least to the outside world , and if your clients are the outside world , well then i think they deserve an answer to the question if the price seems high for the accomplishments of any given stud dog pup or brood bitch without a track record that is know outside of the yard it came from, as its easy to say what you like and claim what you like in your own back yard , not so easy when you play outside so it gets seen by at least a few others who arent all your friends.

Jack like you said yourself in most cases you would not breed outside your own yard, but if you did im sure regardless of the stud fee , but especially if it was a reasonably high one for what i regard in limeys kingpin as an unknown quantity yet, then you would probalby ask yourself if not the owner , why is the price so high on the dog , and most owners might tell you something you dont know that answers that question for you, but only if they open their mouth and actually tell you .

If the stud dog is a known performer/producer, then i feel like most people , that man can ask what he likes, and we may even justify to ourselves a $5000 stud fee if the dog has been there done it seen it etc , but i cant think of many top dogs whos stud fee would surpass limeys kingpin in cost even on the basic stud fee alone , so althoguh you can never gurantee what you will get for sure from either a dog of unknown potential or from one who has a track record in one or both departments, if like most people looking for a studdog had to pay top dollar for an unknown or known performing /producing dog and still stay within a bloodline that fit their ideals , im sure most would go for the known dog, as this is common sense.

Jack i also dont expect anyone to do what i do , i merely said that you will never find me crying to mods or you about boo hoo someone is asking me questions i cant answer please help boo hoo , i just said that i would want to fight my own corner , especially if i felt strongly about my bloodline i would surley want to give the person asking what i feel was a perfectly reasonable question to ask an answer ,and im sure if anyone asked you why you believed your dogs had the value you put on them , you would have an answer which im sure would consist of an answer which leaves them regardless of whehter they buy or not form you, with something to think about for the future, rather than saying nothing you may try to educate them as to why .

By the way you did tell me that if i wanted to say anything about limeys ad to start a thread in the genral forum and that there i could say what i liked , which i have , infact on the thread limey started , but know you seem to feel that even this is to much for poor limey to handle , so are we to believe that even a reasonable debate with no offensive name calling as by myself regarding this thread or any others were god forbid someone might ask i perfectly normal question is just to harsh or shall we just say that limey just like on his own forum decides what people can say as long as he likes it and doesnt make him feel nervous ? i for one hope that this is not the case as unless someone is abusing another member , and that a question is asked, that you of all people jack would not intervene in such an obviously biased way towards limey , in a forum which we all hope to learn from as its run by you jack, would be more biased towards understanding than banning people from feeling free to say what they feel , and let other members tell them whether they agree or disagree in some or all parts of their argument.

Just one last thing jack you say im being hostile towards limey ,but my language is calm and reasoned , whether you or others agree or disagree with my comments in this thread , i have not been agressive or hostile , but pardon me for saying so but you attack me and the language or temrinolgy you use , seems like your being pretty aggresive and attacking me for my posts , anyone would think limey owned this forum also which i hope to god he doesnt as that would mean just one view would be allowed on most things his view .