The best thing you can do is do your research on the breeder and the sire/dam. I only paid $350 for the gyp in my avatar and her future is looking real bright. Research is the key IMO.
The best thing you can do is do your research on the breeder and the sire/dam. I only paid $350 for the gyp in my avatar and her future is looking real bright. Research is the key IMO.
Originally Posted by kandyman
It is hard to discuss the significance of words like "best" without some names or references to go on.
As a beginner, the best, most important dogs I have ever bought were adults: Truman and Trinx. And they were priced at $2,000 apiece. The other was yearling in Coca Cola at $600. I only got 2 litters from Truman, 1 from Trinx, and 3 from Coki ... but the amount of winners and Champions that have come down from these dogs eclipses the production record of 95%+ of any active breeder today.
As an experienced dogman, the best dogs I ever had I bred myself, except for Ouch who was given to me because of what I have done as a breeder.
I have sold awesome dogs for pretty cheap, like Ch Mr. Serious ROM for $300, but that was because his mama and daddy were untouched at the time I bred them.
I have also sold $1500 pups who grew up to be Champions also like the cover dog Ch Vengence.
The difference in price was reflective of how game and awesome I KNEW the parents were (when I produced Vengence), rather than just making a breeding of two young dogs that were bred "on pedigree," but themselves were unchecked (when Mr. Serious was bred).
I have always sold "cheap pups" when I was experimenting with 2 untouched, but nice-looking young dogs ... and I have always had more expensive animals for sale. Towards the end of my breeding career, all of my "cheap pups" had a better chance of turning out (at least game) than 95% of anyone breeding dogs ... and most did so. Yet my customers who "bought cheap" from me ... and then bought one of my $1,000+ pups off of what I considered to be truly badass dogs ... ALWAYS came back for my more expensive pups. (Wildchild would be a prime example)
I agree that an experienced dogman can (through his knowledge / reputation) get some great dogs cheap ... or even given to him if he's good enough at what he does ... but most beginners do not have the sense to know which is what, nor the reputation to get anyone's best handed to him for free.
For a novice dogman, the best way to get a TRULY good dog (not what some guy who's never bred a winner "says" is a good dog) is to go with a proven breeder, who is honest, and then bring enough money to buy what he really doesn't want to sell.
Jack
Agree 100%. I get asked why I sell some pups for $6 or $700 and why sometimes 800-1000. Well, it all depends. If I'm selling something in conjunction with another breeder who sells his pups higher than I, I go up to no create a situation of question on the litter as a whole. In addition, I won't disrespect the efforts or work that went into something like this depending on what's behind it.
It looks disrespectful to me. It creates problems to me.
Why would anyone who take pride in their dogs sell them to strangers for close to nothing? If pups are offered to the public for that kind of money thats just what it is. Offering all your hard work to anyone for almost nothing. Makes no sense. If it's a friend offering a 100 dollar pup its a completely different story.
QUOTE]Jack, I believe Kandyman is referring to the best of his stock, and I don't know many truly active dogmen who are going to post up stats with names/references of so and so along with precentages. I don't think a high tag makes a bulldog more valuabe more game or more able to produce the same.
Now having said that, I believe as a breeder if you so choose to sell your stock, then a price that you as an individual feel is going to compensate the loss you may incur parting with that particular animal should be some what substantial. But like stated by Kandyman, that high priced pup is no more likely to turn out.
I think this seperates a breeder from an active dogman, as most active dogmen don't just experiment and sell those pups.I have sold awesome dogs for pretty cheap, like Ch Mr. Serious ROM for $300, but that was because his mama and daddy were untouched at the time I bred them.
I completely agree...but a beginner more often than not doesn't need someone's "best" because he'll likely eff it up.I agree that an experienced dogman can (through his knowledge / reputation) get some great dogs cheap ... or even given to him if he's good enough at what he does ...but most beginners do not have the sense to know which is what, nor the reputation to get anyone's best handed to him for free.
Most Breeders/active dogmen aren't targeting the "beginner" as their customer, they are looking to channel their stock into working hands.
Good discussion
S_B
Yea, if I was looking why not.
It's just when I see a dog with peds that I like and their letting it go for that little amount it just make me wonder if the dog is really bred that way.
I don't think price is reflective on a persons honesty. Hell you can buy a 115 lb ADBA registered "pit bull" for $2500, no way in hell those are truly bred the way the papers say.
I get your point, but the flipside to that is without knowing what we're talking about it's hard to context meaning to the term "best."
I agree that "a high price tag" doesn't necessarily mean a dog is more valuable, per se, but it damned sure does on my yard ... and on any knowledgeable/honest dogman's yard.
Some pups simply ARE more likely to turn out than others, otherwise why not just breed any bleepin' dog to any bleepin' dog, if "they're all the same"
It is only because they're damned sure not "all the same" ... and there damned sure are breedings more likely to produce world class dogs than others ... that we care so much about pedigrees/who we get our dogs from, etc.
I agree with the first part, disagree with the second. It's not the "price" that makes a pup more likely to turn out ... it's the breeder's certainty that means that.
I do agree that, just because someone puts a high price tag on a pup, that doesn't mean the pup is "better" (especially if that guy really doesn't know anything and is just selling "tightbred X", with no understanding of anything he's working with) ... but when a KNOWLEDGEABLE breeder breeds his absolute best to his absolute best ... and he's worked with it for a number of years ... YOU BET he knows what he's going to produce
Agree. But that doesn't mean the active dogman is producing better dogs. Ch Mr. Serious whipped some extremely successful active dogmen, and outproduced most dogs that have ever lived, dog-for-dog produced.
AgreeI completely agree...but a beginner more often than not doesn't need someone's "best" because he'll likely eff it up.
There are plenty of beginners who have good intentions, and (as a matter of fact) Mr. Serious was in the hands of a relative beginner but, again, stomped some considerably-experienced ass. Same with Ch Vengence.
Agreed
Very good feed back thanks guysYo jack I'm a start calling you COME BACK JACK..
cause you alway got a come back but I love it keep it coming...
You can't win with these people in these fuckin dogs these days. If you pay a small amount for a dog there's going to be questions about if it is bred the way the breeder claims, pay to high of an amount and now everybody and there momma has something to say about the parents or what you "could've" got for that amount. Hell I even heard people judge based on where the ad for the pups was, and contrary to a lot of guys beliefs two of my best dogs came right out of the gazette so it goes back to that old saying of "a good dog is where you find it".
All truth contains paradox, and most people only see (or wish to argue) one side or the other of what is actually a multi-faceted truth.Very good feed back thanks guys
With that said, while it may be true that "price" (by itself) doesn't necessarily make a pup better than another ... the other side of the truth is the fact that NO ONE is going to sell his very best dogs for the same price as his average dogs. A man isn't going to sell "a game bum" for the same price as his Grand Champion.
By the same token, a man with no breeding record who has (what he says are) two game, but average dogs of so-so pedigree ... or has pups bred the same basic way a thousand other dogs are bred ... will simply NEVER be able to sell his pups for the same amount of money that an established breeder, who has reliably and consistently produced a multitude of winning dogs in top comp, using his very best individuals. And anyone who can't understand this has a thinking disorder.
So, sure, in some sense any "one" pup may (or may not) turn out ... and if that's all the farther some people can think then they really can't be helped.
Because the other truth is some breedings REALLY stack the odds of getting a good dog in your favor ... while other breedings essentially don't give you a snowball's chance in hell of turning out ...
Knowledgeable breeders are trying (usually successfully) to at least produced good, honest dogs ... and I can't think of too many who don't have different price tiers based either on how certain they are of this, the rarity/exclusivity of the blood, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is absolutely correct that everyone has "something to say" about whatever it is you're trying to do. As Bill Cosby said, "I can't tell you the secret to success, but I can tell you the secret to failure, and that is trying to please everybody."
It simply cannot be done.
I disagree. You may have found some good dogs, and that is great, but the truth is the very best, most important dogs aren't stumbled-upon by accident ... the lion's share of truly great dogs are usually planned-for by knowledgeable dogmen with a sense of purpose in their breedings ...
Jack
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
