Fellows you might as well suck it up. Mr. R. Fox is right. You got to live in today and do your best. Anymore to be said on this topic is a moot point. My Pit Bull Bible just arrived in the mail. Going to do something productive and start reading it.
Jack, the book arrived in a timely fashion and was well packaged. Thank You for your time in writing something of sound value. To help young dog men get a good solid start in the game. Wish I had a book like this back when I got in the dogs. Cheers
Randy i dont think anyone is saying that we have to belive anyone in particular blindly , but after my reply to your post which i thought was a reasonable one ,asking you and making some reasonable points ,some in agreement and some not so, that rather than come in on a thread and make some statments about the sujbect and throw a few stories of your own in there about other possiblilties which is fine ,but to not want to have a debate about it but and to just have to believe exactly what you say or your not playing is wrong ,and i agree with you that 40 years on it isnt going to change the world ,whehter floyd lied about billy and eli, or what dog quit, etc , but dont you think it would be better to in someway try to make sense of these things were and when we can , rather than jsut avoid them as if they never happend .Originally Posted by Foxman
Maybe you dont want to admit that its more than likely floyd was lying about billy ,based on the timeline alone regardless of any hearsay or other factors includng mayifelds theory, but you are a friend of floyds and not really mayfields friend , so i understand you not wanting to take sides, but this i think is the probelm we have with the dogs, everyone would rather keep quiet, when actually it would benefit the breed and the men whos reputation has either been made better or in mayfields case called him crazy for it, when infact randy i think it would be fair to give him the credit for at least making the breeding that produced eli and not floyd as that isnt right whosevers friend you or i am its still wrong and the peds should reflect it,especially when more than a serious doubt exisits as in blind billys case ,which would also mean eli is not bred as pedigreed and i know if that was my friend or family memebr that they called mad and jealous , i would want that put right wouldnt you randy.
I think you are right, I don’t see the harm in talking about it and comparing what folks know. I was told once you find the key to unlock Pandora’s box you will probably end up wishing you didn’t. We know one thing for certain, aint no difference in men of yesterday compared to men of today. They all lie, some folks will lie and some folks will swear by that lie. I think Mountain man was one of if not the only to publicly state they would keep a dog that quit and just try him another day.
Project I think the theory of Eli and how he came about is valid, I've been honored to be able to speak to a few men that were around back then. Yes they all agree that Eli was off Ch Cry Baby, but at that is where Mayfield's credit for Eli just about stops. He did the litter that produced him, but it was Mr. Clemmons who took his gyp and bred to Eli to make him now famous after his 3 famous children. It was Floyd's work after those kids and their kids and so on that made Eli as famous as he is now. Folks that seen Eli don’t speak highly of him at all, they say he was pretty much average and was nothing to speak of until his kids hit the scene. That's where his fame took off.
I know a few guys who used some of the Mayfield blood and 20 years ago they had some great success but even those guys now with their dogs which still have some Mayfield blood in it have minimized using it. When I ask a friend who has Mayfield dogs for over 20 years back to the Sunshine stuff and stuff dome from Mr. Andress and others, about Maverick or Banjo or any other dog being Mayfield bred and he said simply from his experiences with the lines for 2 decades he can't see any similarities. He said especially with the Maverick dogs because everything about them is different from their change of build to their strengths and weaknesses. I've had some Maverick dogs for some time and can't see it either. One thing about his Mayfield dogs that have remained the same is their ability to bite (which he doesn’t breed for as primary) but also their ability to finish and want to finish. His dogs have stayed true to that but that's just his experiences. Also his dogs body style has been the same, not midget but short dogs with thick structure and great natural strength and wind. Where the maverick dogs I've had and the dogs he has had, have been longer dogs with more leg more head style or wrestling types of dogs, not with a bunch of mouth. Which a lot depended on what the bottom of it was, but his Mayfield dogs have been power dogs with mouth and want to finish.
Again could be just what he got and what they were able to produce. I know with a few of his associates they also got the same style of dogs and I seen that on 3 different yards from the Midwest to the South. You could be absolutely correct with your theory and could be absolutely wrong, but we can give the nod for all those around saying Eli was off Cry Baby but that's not where all his fame came from. So what exactly credit is Mayfield missing that he deserves? Eli became the man when his 3 kids were seen as badass dogs and then Ch Tommy and some other dogs. They were reminiscent of the Henry dogs that Tudor and others had success with those black powerhouses.
I just got off the phone after a long talk with Projectx. About the dogs and many good war stories to boot. He has some good bred dogs and he does have those tapes. He let me listen to one of them, was interesting to listen to. Wish him and all the rest of our members Merry Christmas and good luck with their dogs. How ever they may or may not be bred. Like Phil Robertson from Duck Dynasty said; Lets have fun and be Happy, Happy, Happy. Cheers.
Hi crazyred , first off let me say im not asking that we give mayfield credit for the family that was bred down after the
intial crybaby x cotton breeding that produced ELI, but i do think that he should get the regonition for the breeding
and that he was correct all along that floyd had srewed him over on that litter of ELI'S , which when you think if floyd
handn't lied to mayfiled and told him all the pups had died , then mayfield would have taken the pups home with him and
and without ELI on floyds yard then neither floyd nor clemons could have bred to him and they wouldnt have been able to get the credit and fame for breeding up that ELI family of dogs if he had never been on floyds yard to start with would they.
SO its about time we gave mayfield at least the courtesy to say DON YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG. which i think he deserves
just as i think the adba should change the blind billy ped to reflect his unknown heritage and ELI'S true heritage .
As for the maverick dog, i wont go into that now , but there is also some question marks as to that dog , and i will
go into that on another day , but i havent said anything about the maverick dog yet , so you were reading my mind
crazyred but i agree that we should try to see which way the wind is blowing thats for sure.
Guys, this could be an interesting thread if people don't get their panties in a wad.
Try to keep it civil and mature, if possible.
Thanks,
Jack
Glad you got is and even gladder you like it
Happy Holidays,
Jack
I can't wait until you are up to talking about that, but I think it has long been credited to those whether in secret or in mind that Mayfield was correct about Eli being off Cry Baby. Yes I agree had Don took the pups then all of the following probably wouldn't have happened and with that said Eli wouldn't even be famous so what credit what don be looking to take?
Remember he had Tombstone as well, Snake as well and Hank. Does he deserve the credit for those dogs that became famous? If he want's that credit he has to take the credit for the folks who constantly screamed and yelled at him for spending tens of thousands with him and got curs down from his line as well. That's the big difference, and I've had dogs from Floyd that weren't worth a cats piss. Yet still you don't hear people bashing him for the curs they got you hear people praising for the great one that they got from him. Most folks that bash Floyd for the curs don't even own Eli dogs or never got a dog from Floyd. Same as with Jack and most other good breeders. Folks that bash typically never owned dogs from that man but talk about the curs. A good friend of mines spent over 7k on dogs from Mayfield and his protege at the time Kershner and not one of those dogs made the grade. So you got to remember the bad comes along with the good my friend.
I think Mayfield needed to reconsider his approach when it came to getting credit, you got to remember you catch more flies with honey then you do with salt.
I think he didn't feel as appreciated in his time but the generation after him and still to this day hold his name with high regard. Look at his peers and most of them had their moment with fame, Floyd took off with his Eli fame, Bobby with Bullyson fame, PP with Tombstone x Bolio fame, Crenshaw with Honeybunch, Baker Davis with Boomerang, Maloney with Toot, VJ with Hank, Wood's, Hyde etc and Maurice as in conversation as Greatest Breeder ever, he feels a little slighted. All these men had their own dogs and folks won with their dogs and they took turns as being the top breeder here or there where Mayfield didn't take off here, overseas he did but not in his own backyard and I think that got to him a little bit.
Hi crazyred , i will get onto the maverick story later , but im not saying mayfield wanted any credit , i am saying that its
right that now we know about blind billy and ELI, that mayfield should be given some credit for that breeding and for haivng been correct all along ,instead of being called crazy and jealous, by people either directly involved with the dogs he talked
of as being bred incorrectly or their followers .
As for you saying that had don taken them pups home that ELI probably wouldnt have been famous seems way off base, lets not forget don made the breeding he knew how the dogs were bred and his intention was raise school and match
them had they shown good, and then of course breed them , and as don was at least the dogman that floyd ever was and
probably even better , then i dont think ELI's fame or his offsprings would have gone unnoticed in dons hands ,and at least
the peds would have been correct so that anyone getting those dogs could breed them with a full knowledge of their true
heritage ,whcih of course floyd never allowed to happen .
I dont think i am asking that we give mayfiled credit for tombstone , i have only said that mayfield was sure that tombstone
was not out of the gina bitch, but out of tudors baby, and gave his reasons for that ,but mayfield never tried to take credit
for him and im not suggesting that either, all mayfield was saying was that the pedigree in his opinion wasnt correct .The snake dog and hank i havent mentioned but mayfield bred the dog with kennedy and was his dog and he was bred and produced some exceptional dogs so yes now that you bring it up i dont see why mayfield shouldnt get credit for a dog he bred and owned or at least had a big hand in his existence , im sure CYJ can tell about snake also as he was bred to his tina bitch and produced very well.Hank again as you mentioned it was bred by mayfield and was made famous by v jackson and
i wouldnt agrue that v jackson made hank famous but the source should never be overlooked or underestimated , and i can tell you this, that don would always give earl credit for being instrumental in his breeding program , which produced many good dogs like hank and snake and all of his mayfield family of dogs , but he never put himself above earl, he always gave earl the credit for being able to breed them , which i think shows how different don was to so many who the day the get a dog
from a breeder like earl for example , and think that the next litter is all about them ,and forget the years of work put in
for them from the man before them.
As for your friend who spent a lot of money with mayfield dogs , well you mentioned kershner , so i will assume this wasnt from dons yard when don was still breeding himself but form kershner in illinois. Although kershner had dogs from mayfields breeding , depending on when your friend got them would make a big difference in the animals. Kershner at the beginging
did have a decent pool of mayfield genes, in other words a mix of the genes from mayfields family, but he never really had the older stuff that don still had before the mid 80s, and to my mind dons best blood on kershners yard came down from
dons old dibo dog , which kershner never had much of on his yard and never bred enough of those dogs with dibo blood
so his mayfield family was not as strong as it could have been , had he been able to get more of the older blood or bred up
more of the dogs that had dons dibo dogs indside then yes, but kershners best dogs came when he crossed the aligator blood into
his mayfield dogs , that was to my mind better , but it would be interesting to see how your friends dogs were bred , i think i can guess , but would be nice to see .
I totaly agree with you that mayfield didnt feel appreciated , but he took that as normal, he would say that when you are at the top of the mountian, the others will always try to push from it, and its very hard to get the respect you deserve while your still at the top.The funny thing is that earl tudor felt the same way , in one audio i have , earl tells mayfield that
(THEY NEVER DID GIVE ME NO RESPECT DON) , and he even went on to talk about a man who put out a book back in earls time when earl was the n01 dogman around , and earl says (,DON YOU KNOW HE NEVER EVEN MENTIONED MY NAME ONCE CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT DON), so things never change i suppose , anyway take care crazyred and you and everyone else on here have a happy christmas ok.
An example of pedigrees is as follows. My wife and I were both raised in Oklahoma. Both sides of our family tree traced her and I both back to two different indian tribes. It is 5 generation on her 6 on me. We decided to send in our Dna to this place that has all the tribes markers for DNA on file. I do not remember the cost but I think it was $300 each. It came back with no indian in our family tree. We were both 100% European. When I told my family they all laughed and didn't get excited about the error. My wife's family was different. They got mad and called us liers and said that place was wrong. Why don't a bunch of you guys get together and see. There is a place that it can be sorted out at. If two people have the two bloodlines and have kept them faily pure. You can see if their connected. One side will be mad the other will say it is a lie. Just warning ahead of time. All those stories may be a lie some may be true. I personally do not care what anyone believes. Mayfield or Boudreaux didn't have a monopoly on all the good dogs. There were good ones all over the place. Boudreaux and his friends beat Mayfield Twice. Did you guys know that? I was at one of the fights. Mayfield was one of the greatest conditioners back then. Did any of you ever wonder why Mayfield would send Pit General to Wimberly to condition. That is the biggest money fight and the most important fight. Yet Mayfield said he had to condition a bitch. Which was for less money and wasn't a big deal. I had a man who was a friend of Mayfield's call me ahead of the Pit General fight and He said. Bet everything you can the fix is on. Now don't go telling people I said the fix is on. I'm not saying the fix is on. I'm just saying I got a call. I decided not to even go after I got that tip. I like it when both sides have an chance. Just in case that was true and it might not be. Randy Fox
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