DISPUTED OR FAKE PEDS FROM THE PAST AND PRESENT .

[projectx]

If Mayfield was so smart, and knew so much about breeding dogs and breeding theory, then why wasn't he more successful as a breeder compared to those he talked about?

None of what he has said is a "fact" ... it's merely "what he says" ...

Jack

PS: A dog born in March of 51 could easily sire a litter in 52 ... and would be 18 months old by September. Could also have been bred to on Heinzl's yard for all we know. Birthdates could be wrong on the papers, etc.

Jack mayfield was a very good breeder and bred some very good dogs and i think to say otherwise is being very hard indeed i think in texas alone the yards he helped with dogs from his family never mind the others he sent to dogmen
form texas to canada and california to new york who were more than happy with them and would still today wish they could gets dogs bred like
that mayfield sent them.
As for waht mayfield said being fact a fact,well i dont think i am saying everything he said is a fact, of course theres always another possiblity, but i think you yourself agreed with the tombstone theory which was like most things that have a lot of hearsay and circumstantial evidence and gut feelings rather than stone cold facts, we use our inteligence to try put the pieces in place and make the correct decsion on them as best as we can and to our satisfaction.

I do however think that although their is an outside chance that dibo born in march 21 of 1951 might have been the sire to a dog , in this instance blind billy , we would need to change up the dates and facts that we know and have never been disputed or had any doubt thrown on them untill you said it about the dobs , and it seems odd that we would rather move heaven and earth just to make floyds story fit rather than use the facts or things that we know from dibos history and floyds own words which as i said he has been sayiig since the 60s but would rather decide not to see what is right in front of our noses
instead.

Ok lets look at the what if scenario of it might be true, well unless anyone else can prove that dibos dobs is incorrect, then i think we need to take that as a starting point for this case.So dibos dob march 21 1951 we also know and untill
there is any proof otherwise dibo wasnt bred by anyone untill earl tudor got him on his yard, and that was at around 3 years old at least and so his first breeding may have been even later ,but lets say he was 2 just to give floyd a break shall we, so that would mean ,(and im being very generous is giving floyd back a year here), that dibo was on earls yard in march of 1953 (which he wasnt ) but blind billy by floyds own words from the hr time he got billy onwards was that billy was born in 1952 which still means its impossible, unless of course we play the lets make anything possible game and
every dob or knowledge we have on any dog in doubt then we can make it fit the story.

Just like you saying well maybe heinzl bred him, well maybe he did ,but we do know heinzl never thought much of the dog , and infact thats the first time anyone has ever said that as an excuse for a what if scenario on blind billy, but then
floyd also said he got billy by trading some roosters for him, and theres never been any mention that heinzl ever bred blind billy.

So like most things that dont fit when we try to make them fit they never do fit properly, and like i said with the evidence we have and even being generous on the dates ( which im sure no one would do for mayfield)just for the purpose of this thread , i dont see how an intleigent man can make the leap from what is believable to something that doesnt make realistic sense at all .

Jack with the tombstone dog for example , eventhough i believe baby was his dam as you do,and not based on mayfields own words alone or his overall gut feeling , becasue he himself was never 100% satistisfied enough to breed tombstone
eventhough he was sure baby was the dam, and even with maloney on audio confirming that and then some 5 mins later
changes it to say the gina bitch ,mayfield wouldnt take the chance of breeding him into his family , and then years later
a dogman from arkansas who mayfield didnt know personally but i am sure someone on here will know who he was, called mayfield and during the conversation and he asks mayfiled what he thought about tombstone and if he liked him etc and why he
never shows up in any of mayfields pedigrees, and mayfield tells him that he couldnt for sure get the truth about the dam to satisfy him so
he sold him but with breeding rights just in case he could ever get the truth .Well on hearing that this the man tells mayfield that he was a friend of bob wallace who was a much older man than this fellow, and bob wallace told this man that
when maloney claimed that gina was on his yard whelping tombstone bobs said gina was onn his yard, and mayfield says, well im not surpirsed, that makes sense to me, i never did believe tombstone was out of that gina bitch ,and you telling me that story
about bob wallace confirms that to me, and mayfield then says if bob wallace said that i would believe him , infact i would beleive
just about anything bob wallace had to say , as wallace was known as a very honest and direct man who prided himself on his honesty .Now that is an example of a scenario that although i tend to believe the mayfield gut feeling and wallace scenario,it is more than possible that mayfield could have been wrong and that wallace was mistaken and that maloney
was telling the truth and gina was the dam, there is no conclusive evidence to really prove one theory wrong or one theory right, this one is more a case of piecing the puzzle toggether with the pieces we have and making a decison based on the picture as a whole , but i would be the first to say we will just have to leave it as is and move on as it would be unfair
regardless of gut feeling to just changes it now, so that to me is an example of a reasonable what if scenarios being realistically possible, but not the blind billy story.

I am not trying to convince anyone im just putting it out there, and if we look the evidence without trying to play the what if scenario then of all the dogs that have been talked about so far in this thread , and probably every other dog that will ever be talked about
in a thread like this, i dont think we will ever have more proof about a dog than we do on billy,and even without adding in all the circumstantial and hearsay evidence that we could add to the blind billy and eli story i think just on dobs alone and the known story makes it very hard to say its not true, but if people want to beleive floyds version
or what i believe is the true version thats fine by me , take care .

[projectx]

You are insane dude.
Worry about things you can control and forget everything else.
I dislike you based on the bullshit you spew on here constantly. You are that guy, no matter what is presented or brought to you, you will NEVER change. You are a stagnant pool of water that ultimately becomes so toxic it's poison.
As for honest people in some areas and not others - BULLSHIT! A guy is either honest or he's not.

I don't know if you are liar or not, but your tapes prove absolutely NOTHING! NO ONE on this planet can confirm those tapes are the men you claim them to be. No one can prove they are not. If this shit went to a court of law, your tapes WOULD NOT BE PERMITTED. YOU KNOW WHY??????? B/c no one can prove it's them. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. However, it's what you hang ALL of your "proof" on. It is not enough. I' not even saying that you are wrong - but that you CANNOT IN ANY WAY IN HELL PROVE IT - SO THEREFORE - LET IT GO.

I apologize for calling you a liar as I don't KNOW if you are lying or not.
I also apologize for your ignorance that you cannot see or understand yourself.

NQK you called me a lair , you have yet to give me a decent appolgy and as a man which i assume you are , all you have done is say nothing on this thread apart forpm call me a lair and other hidious things , and not once have you given this thread the courtesy of your years of peddling pups to give your views on any dogs mentioned ,but like the obviuos weasel of a man that you are, you call me a lair then when i prove i do have audios that mayfield put out , you dont even have the couurage of a mouse to give a man a decent appology, hell i even appologised to foxamn becasue CYJ who i talked to just the other day for the first time and who i think is a good guy , said i may have overstepped the mark calling foxamn sad, so i gave foxman a genuine appology, you on the otherhand are obviously trialer trash of the worst kind and apart form tell you i think hammonds line is not what it used to be and talk to you about the henry blood, what exaclty have i done to you for you to hate me this much,? You called me a lair, and think that if it was me having said that to you or given me a sarcastic appology and then this last post where you show whos the toxic one, cos if im toxic, then what are the ones who lies to us about our dogs pedigrees ? what are they NQK angels? why is it always the one trying to say something that might actually be true that is called toxic, ? why dont you try adding something usefull to the thread instead of attacking me out of jealosuy and gods knows what other insecurites you suffer from . And honest and decent your not cos you dont act like an honest and decent man NQK, who judges others with statements like (a man is either honest or dishonest), well then your sole lack of honesty in not bieng a real man and having the courage to take back what you called me and give me a geniune appology shows how damn honest and decnet you are NQK , so if your not going to give me that appology
then save your psots to the subject of the thread, otherwsie all your doing by insulting me is doing exactly what you accused me of and thats making a mockery of this thread or something like that so try to be productive , use that thing inside your head called a brain to think about the thread and maybe you can put out a theory of your own without anyones help but if you want to play games with me do it in pm i dont want to be accussed of turning this thread bad becasue of you NQK got it!!

I just forgot to add this ,and i dont care if you dont think the men on these tapes are actually the men i say they are, i think anyone who knew them would know its them , just like jack knows its him talking to patrick on his own tapes, and im sure patricks voice will be regonisable to most folks who have ever hard him talk,orare you trying to say that mayfield made up all 400+ audio tapes with actors playing the parts of earl tudor maurice carver frank fitzwater don maloney and about every other dogman to ever take a piss , wow thats some all star cast and some actors.
Your msot funny statement NQK ,and on that shows your inteligence as you seem to question mine with ease, is the statement you made at the end of your post, with your second disgracefull appolgy to me but of course your appolgys always seem to carry another insult , which might say more about your upbring9ng than anything else , but
only a truly stupid and cretinous person would say as you said to me , and i quote NQK
below.

( I apologize for calling you a liar as I don't KNOW if you are lying or not)

NQK then goes on to say below and i quote

( I also apologize for your ignorance that you cannot see or understand yourself )


although i would love to accept a genuine appology from NQK , i feel that
for any appology to be meant and accepted it should be given without any added insults
otherwise it is hardly an appology is it.

But for him to appologise for my ignorance after his first quote from
which i nearly died from laughing so hard ,is about the most contradictory
and stupid statement that only a village idiot could make wihtout realising
how stupid it sounds and still post it,and certainley the man who makes a statement like
that has no place calling other peolpe ignorant, unless of course they were
looking in mirror at the time they wrote it, which may have confused a person
whos brain works on the same level as the average village idiot .

[projectx]

I think Mayfield recorded conversations with other dogmen without their consent b/c 1. He was paranoid as hell 2. He wanted to use confidential info for and against different people and 3. He was probably a fucking snitch and used these tapes against rivals.

Why in the hell else would someone tape conversations of other people

Nqk i completly agree that mayfield never had their consent, im sure they wouldnt have said the things they did had they known he was recording them , which actually makes the tapes that much more interesting and important, and he probably was paranoid , with good reason, but to call him a snitch , there you go again NQK full accusations with no proof as usuall you must like calling folks lairs but not even a theory on any of the dogs so far, just here to throw shit and hate on me and mayfield , well at least try to put up a theory if dont believe a man like i have done with floyd , at least it isnt just becasue i hate him , i dont but i dont believe him on blind billy, but at least i try to explain why ,what do you do on this thread NQK apart from insult me and look for fight that you cant win , maybe actually making a post about the dogs might be an idea to get you started with .

[bolero]

Randy thats posts a little more like it should have been , why all the annimosity before , but as for blowing my theory out of the water, well i dont think you do, not becuase i dont belive your opinion on a dogs fihgting stlye, and i might even agree with you on some points, but to blow my theory out of the water dont you think you should explain how dibo born in 1951 and billy born supposedly in 1952 (which would mean dibo was bred at one year old or less depending what month billy was whelped )and as we know as has been well documented that dibo was nearly 3 yrs old more or less before earl got him , and wasnt bred by tudor on the day he arrived on his yard , so even if we said dibo was on earls yard at exactly 2 years old, in march 1953 that would still
make it one year to late for him to be blind billys sire, and if it was nearer 3 yrs as is known then it would make it late 1953 or sometime in 1954 before dibo got to earls yard, so i would ask you randy as i have done in all my posts how do you explain that ? I can take on board your fighting styles opinion, but i think the dates need some explaining dont you before you can make such a bold statement as blowing my theory out of the water,i hesitate to say that to you incase you use it to say i wont belive anything you say , because im still waiting for a realistic explanation for how billy can be out of dibo based on those dates , and even making it earlier by one whole year doesnt make it possible, so as much as i take on board your opinons on fighting styles , that breeding wasnt done before by mayfield so how can anyone say what a dogs
fighting style will or wont be , and even dogs who line we know can be very different in style , i certaintly think that the dates need a lot more than that as an expalnation before you can say you blow my theory out of the water randy, i would
put it to you that if you presented your theory in a court of law, and mine i have a feeling the jury would blow yours out of the water as the dates are a prooof of fact , your opinion on what a dogs fighting style may or may not have been is just
an opinion and not a cast iron fact , and if crybaby x cotton as i believe were the true sire and dam to eli, then as that breeding had not been made before how can you or anyone else try to put that up as better evidence than the dobs of both dibo and blind billy which are not made up by me , but a record of fact and sworn to by floyd himself on billy , so randy
as much as i like the tone of your last post and hopefully whatever our views we can keep it to a level where we can agree
to disagree without getting to personal and just let others deicde what they want to believe or not believe, i think that rather than you blowing my theory out of the water randy i am very much still afloat and stillwaiting for that torpedo of facts to match my ones before anyone can say they have sunk me , but i can say this if they can i will be the first to
say well done , thats what were here for to learn more about true breedings not hide from them for fear that we have to play
a game of taking sides regadless of the truth , that gets us nowhere but down the same dead end road , but anyway take care randy ,i dont want to fight with you for the sakeof it, and when ever i think your right i will say so , no matter what has gone before , i believe in being fair regadless of alliances ok.

how about your dates are wrong mayb floyd was mistaken or mayb earl lied ever think of that mayb earl bred dibo as a puppy and had billy for a while before he gave him to floyd

[Foxman]

Jack, The problem with any dogman that lies and says it is a lie but the second story he is fixing to share with you is the correct one. I have a problem with any story he tells. The first second or third. Whether it is recorded on the phone or otherwise. All he is doing by saying he is now expressing the true breeding is confessing he is a lier. So how could a person believe anything he says. A good attorney would completely ruin a witness using that approach. It's something to talk about among friends but I am not convinced anything any of those guys say like Patrick is ever the truth. I can see a mistake like saying it was the 24th when he was born then shortly after that statement saying I was wrong it was the 28th but to tell a Whole line of dogs you lied about then say you lied and here is the new truth. I'm out on that crap. Randy Fox

[Officially Retired]

Jack, The problem with any dogman that lies and says it is a lie but the second story he is fixing to share with you is the correct one. I have a problem with any story he tells. The first second or third. Whether it is recorded on the phone or otherwise. All he is doing by saying he is now expressing the true breeding is confessing he is a lier. So how could a person believe anything he says. A good attorney would completely ruin a witness using that approach. It's something to talk about among friends but I am not convinced anything any of those guys say like Patrick is ever the truth. I can see a mistake like saying it was the 24th when he was born then shortly after that statement saying I was wrong it was the 28th but to tell a Whole line of dogs you lied about then say you lied and here is the new truth. I'm out on that crap. Randy Fox

I hear what you're saying.

As a fraud investigator for over 12 years, who then either settles claims or litigates/prosecutes them with attorneys, I am well versed in dealing with lies.

The key word is motive.

When Patrick was telling me "the inside scoop," it was as a confidant. When he was lying, it was either because someone wanted "a Maloney dog" (so he papered it that way to make $$) ... or it was because a famous stud was shooting blanks (so he used a no-name son to cover for the elder, so again he could make $$) ... or it was to take some dog that made Champion off a dead stud (and re-paper it under an active stud, so again he could promote that living stud), etc.

When I was being told "the truth" there was no financial motive ... it was just during 3-hour conversations shooting the breeze. But, I agree, once a person is a confirmed liar on paperwork ... it's hard to take their word seriously if the money is on the line.

Jack

[CYJ]

Wish I still had my old Pete Spark's Bound books and the older Blood lines magazines. A lot of those older pedigrees are in those books. Only way to check is get a printed copy of both pedigrees. The errors may or may not be there. I think it is just a human error and nothing more. Mr.Tudor was a Game Chicken man and Boudreaux had access to some good Game Chicken stock. Cajuns liked the Game Chicken Sport probably more than the dogs. Some of the best Game Chicken breeders lived in Cajun country.

Bass' Tramp Red Boy was bred to other bitches before Bass owned him. Mr. Martin was breeding him early as 12 to 14 months or so. Rowell had one of those breeding's off Martin's lady called Ringo. My brother had Ringo's full sister named Liz. Both dogs were black and white.

So a male dog can be bred at a young age. A Black man owned Dibo for a good while and was how this dog got his name. He could have bred Dibo as well, before anybody else got him. He may have had no papers and Heinzl had to apply for them. Nothing can be proved by just a conservation were two dog men may have just been feeling each other out.

When Pit General got stole, sure the conversation between Mayfield and Carver was more of a feeling each other out. Mayfield was running up and down rabbit trails. Carver may have been a suspect.

The conversation between Mayfield and Maloney could have been Maloney screwing with Don. Flip flopping in the conversation to have a little fun. See how one can build up assumptions. Why certain type picture taking and taped conversations without the person knowing can not be used in a court of law. Or if court approved the other lawyer is to have access to them as well to prepare a proper defense.

I worked and retired from the Telephone company. If one is being recorded with certain type equipment approved to be used by a Court Order. The approved equipment was placed on the main frame inside the Telephone Central Office and tagged.

A person being recorded without permission and outside premises equipment used. Would hear a intermediate beep back in those days. If a off premise extension was put on a main telephone line. The Telephone company would notify the main house # and let that person know about the off premise extension.

So if Carver/Maloney/Patrick or who ever heard those beeps. Knew they were being recorded and might could have just played along. One thing I have learned in my life is how one treats others are generally how you get treated back. As the old saying goes, What goes around comes around. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

Jack mayfield was a very good breeder and bred some very good dogs and i think to say otherwise is being very hard indeed i think in texas alone the yards he helped with dogs from his family never mind the others he sent to dogmen
form texas to canada and california to new york who were more than happy with them and would still today wish they could gets dogs bred like
that mayfield sent them.

We simply disagree. People being "happy" with a man's dogs means nothing. Hell, there are millions of people who are "happy" with pomeranians.

What we're talking about is producing seriously good dogs that truly affect the game. And while Mayfield may have bred some good dogs, his influence was negligible when compared to his peers about whom he speaks (Carver, Tudor, Boudreaux). Mayfield's influence as a breeder was nowhere near these individuals'.

Does that make him wrong? Not necessarily. I am sure there is merit in some of what he says, but I sure wouldn't be hanging on his every word like you seem to.

Jack

[ragedog10]

We simply disagree. People being "happy" with a man's dogs means nothing. Hell, there are millions of people who are "happy" with pomeranians.

What we're talking about is producing seriously good dogs that truly affect the game. And while Mayfield may have bred some good dogs, his influence was negligible when compared to his peers about whom he speaks (Carver, Tudor, Boudreaux). Mayfield's influence as a breeder was nowhere near these individuals'.

Does that make him wrong? Not necessarily. I am sure there is merit in some of what he says, but I sure wouldn't be hanging on his every word like you seem to.

Jack

Amen

[Foxman]

Jack, I liked Mayfield and visited with him many times. He was a very interesting person til around the last four or five years of his life. He would write paragraph after parigraph of material that I had no understanding of what he was trying to say sort of like projectX. Clements called it the Ramblings of Mayfield. I ask Boudreaux years ago. Boudreaux may not remember this about what he thought about Mayfield and some of the things he said. He'd grin and say Mayfield is mayfield. I never did worship Mayfield like he was a God liike some of the dogmen do. Matter of fact I do not believe there are any dogmen without some faults expecially myself. Mayfield was a talented dogman with many faults just like everyone else. Weldon stockton who is a long time trusted friend of mine and also was a good friend of Mayfields. I talk to him on the internet three or four times a week. He read a statement Mayfield wrote that he only fought dogs that belong to himself. Weldon said that is a damn lie. Weldon said Mayfield borrowed several dogs from me and matched them. Of course all dogmen back then knew that. His outstanding ability was in his conditioning only. I see lots of people better than him in other areas. I do not think he was a better conditioner than Floyd. Mayfield was a Bell boy at a Hotel and Floyd told me he put tile in bathrooms and did lots of other professsional stuff. I told him I was a Commercial Plumbing Contractor and he said he also Plumbed. So I put him up quiet a bit above Mayfield in his work and money making abilities. Mayfield as he got older quit the bell boy job and rasied a big commercial vegetable garden and did good at that. He had lots of customers. Like I said he was a good dogman but not a God to be worshipped.