Head Shape and Bite?

[No Quarter Kennel]

Been thinking about his a lot lately. What are your thoughts?
A sprinter is typically longer than the average joe from the ankle to kneed and elbow to wrist and his waist is a bit higher than the common fellow of the same height.
A man with shorter arms can bench press a man of the same weight who has longer arms.
A thicker man can squat more wt than a skinny man of the same weight.

These are examples. OUTSIDE THE FREAKS AND EXCEPTIONS, what are your thoughts on the shape of the dog's head and his ability to bite? Not something I'm extremely focused on, but it's something I've been thinking about. A longer legged dog typically wrestles better than a short legged dog.

Head structure does play a role in the ability to bite or how hard. Is this something you guys consider?

I know there are a 100 other variables to consider, but when selecting stock to breed and many things being equal, what are your thoughts on head structure?

[EWO]

All the things you listed are really close to basic physics where one would get into fulcrum points, apexes and then spans into anatomical structure. Then scientifically one could say this dog should bite harder than that dog based on head structure, jaw length, scissor-ed bite, jaw muscle, and maybe even neck muscle. And as soon as we are onto something the exact opposite dog we are looking for will bite shit in half. Like your post said, lots of other variables, from the science of genetics down to the simple assumption is he biting as hard as he can in a particular situation.

So I can only respond to the post, not necessarily answer any questions. I think we can find some tendencies, maybe a little easier within a family/strain, but I doubt we can really nail anything down.

Great post. I too would like to hear the thoughts of others. EWO

[EWO]

All the things you listed are really close to basic physics where one would get into fulcrum points, apexes and then spans into anatomical structure. Then scientifically one could say this dog should bite harder than that dog based on head structure, jaw length, scissor-ed bite, jaw muscle, and maybe even neck muscle. And as soon as we are onto something the exact opposite dog we are looking for will bite shit in half. Like your post said, lots of other variables, from the science of genetics down to the simple assumption is he biting as hard as he can in a particular situation.

So I can only respond to the post, not necessarily answer any questions. I think we can find some tendencies, maybe a little easier within a family/strain, but I doubt we can really nail anything down.

Great post. I too would like to hear the thoughts of others. EWO

[CrazyRed]

I agree with you guys and like most things it either interests you or frustrates you with all the variables. I also after years learned about the unique differences of actual hard mouth. Because you really don't know how hard one is biting and also starts to depend where that dog is biting. A dog that hits soft tissue and opens it up and the hog bleeds out in 10, you would think wow that dog has some mouth killed him in 10. You would certainly think more of his mouth then the dog you hear killed a dog in 35, but you hear not only did he kill him but he killed him biting on the head. Also when should we rate the mouth, should we rate the mouth of dogs in their norm or when they are in shape. I know Kenny G liked dogs with smaller heads with not a long muzzle but not short compact neither shaped head and we know his dogs packed some punch. Me and a few friends still have some of these dogs around and I'll be damn but the dogs with those same type heads as Fargo tiny head, they seem to pack the most mouth. Also come with double sets of cutters and even seen a few that had 3 sets freaked me out a little. Now a friend who runs dogs opposite of Turtlebuster dogs likes dogs with small box heads not the big ones but small box heads with a short muzzle and his dogs have some of the best bite I've ever seen, they also wreck the chest and if they come to the face of a hog it's ugly. He also has some of the most driven dogs I've ever seen and beyond head size i think will plays a bigger part then people realize. Sorry for babbling guys

[EWO]

Agreed. Actual mouth can be hidden or over exemplified by bite location, as well as intent. Sometimes the intent of a dog defines him as a fighting dog or a killing dog. Some of the great finishers would throat check a dog and it takes little to "no mouth" to end one in quick fashion based solely on bite location. A winning head dog may very well do little damage in the chest of another. It is a lot like real estate, it is all about Location, Location, Location.

Determining mouth is difficult if the grade is based on the damage inflicted. Sort of like a lot of animal bites in humans. They bite and we jerk our hand out. Did the majority of the damage come from the bite or from the jerk? A lot say the jerk. Same with the dogs. A good jaw and neck muscle can take hold and go into a shaking flurry. Upon release the damage can be superficial to the skin or deep into the muscle. Did he bite into the deep tissue or did he bite and shake his way in? No real way to tell.

One of the reasons I have so much respect for the bitten dog continuing is once upon a time we were walking a dog and it got away. He went under a fence and hit a goat like a ton of bricks. Bit him right in the spinal area. After much explaining we had to buy the goat. We put him down and cut him up for the dogs. Upon skinning him the teeth marks in and around the spine were deep into tissue and seemed to round themselves out under the skin. The inside damage was far more severe than the outside damage. If you ever seen a deer shot thru the shoulder and see what lead shot does it is very similar. So for a dog to be bitten and continue is an amazing feat in itself. And this dog was a dog I did not consider a freak mouth dog. He bit hard but his forte was staying in the area for lengths of time not just bone crushing bites. EWO

[No Quarter Kennel]

Good points. The Hammonds stock comes, typically, slightly undershot. GH believed there is a much better holding ability with undershot dogs than scissor bite dogs. I agree. If you bit hard enough with a scissor bite, you will bite the nose OFF of the bull while an undershot jaw will fold and hold the nose. What do we want to do? STAY in hold or bite multiple times? Now, if you can literally bite the nose and other parts off, then by all means, scissors bite. HOWEVER, how many can bite THAT hard?

I believe the will plays a great role and along with excessive will sometimes, comes tremendous effort. With that, CAN, not always, but most times CAN exhaust a dog. Is this why hard biting dogs, in general, aren't as game as lines bred for other attributes? Of course I'm talking about lines or families bred exclusively FOR mouth.

You can have all the mechanical advantages in the world, but with no effort, it means nothing.
Without pace in accordance to your opponent and what it will take to win, comes burnout.
Winners are special.

[CYJ]

It is hard to get such dogs all the time. Sometimes the inbreeding pushes the dogs back to the heavier undershot bull dog type head. Which is O.K. if the head is not to large to the head body ratio. If backed by a powerful bull terrier body can still get the job done. I am not referring to a heavy under shot bulldog head. But a more blocker head like most of the Colby dogs had.

The type head I liked on a dog was the older Bull terrier wedge type head with the longer heavier muzzle and eyes more centered than spread apart. With a long neck, deep chested powerful bull terrier build and that rat tail swung down low. Not talking about those modern English Bull Terrier types like the Target dog.

Two examples on the head type I would prefer and body type would be dogs like CH Woodall's Weird Jack and CH Watt's Double Snort. Weird Jack at 44lbs chain weight and Watt's Double Snort at 40 lbs are really big boned athletic dogs for their show weight.

Mr. Hollingsworth foundation dogs were of this same type build. If I was buying a young dog or brood stock would prefer this type build if possible. Dogs like these with the longer neck, the longer muzzle and bull terrier wedge head. Can bite just as hard or harder than a under shot dog. They have that extra or longer reach that can enable them to get better holds or out of a bad hold.

Sort of the same benefits of the longer reach that one boxer has over the other. With all said though a Bumble Bee is not suppose to be able to fly with it's overly fat body and small wings. Yet it flies, and so with our dogs sometimes, with what ever head type they have. Put in proper shape many dogs that are not always built the best with a lot of heart can push on and win. Cheers

[evolutionkennels]

It is hard to get such dogs all the time. Sometimes the inbreeding pushes the dogs back to the heavier undershot bull dog type head. Which is O.K. if the head is not to large to the head body ratio. If backed by a powerful bull terrier body can still get the job done. I am not referring to a heavy under shot bulldog head. But a more blocker head like most of the Colby dogs had.

The type head I liked on a dog was the older Bull terrier wedge type head with the longer heavier muzzle and eyes more centered than spread apart. With a long neck, deep chested powerful bull terrier build and that rat tail swung down low. Not talking about those modern English Bull Terrier types like the Target dog.

Two examples on the head type I would prefer and body type would be dogs like CH Woodall's Weird Jack and CH Watt's Double Snort. Weird Jack at 44lbs chain weight and Watt's Double Snort at 40 lbs are really big boned athletic dogs for their show weight.

Mr. Hollingsworth foundation dogs were of this same type build. If I was buying a young dog or brood stock would prefer this type build if possible. Dogs like these with the longer neck, the longer muzzle and bull terrier wedge head. Can bite just as hard or harder than a under shot dog. They have that extra or longer reach that can enable them to get better holds or out of a bad hold.

Sort of the same benefits of the longer reach that one boxer has over the other. With all said though a Bumble Bee is not suppose to be able to fly with his overly fat body and small wings. Yet it flies, and so with our dogs sometimes, with what ever head type they have. Put in proper shape many dogs that are not always built the best with a lot of heart can push on and win. Cheers

Agreed

[EWO]

Well said, especially the bumble bee reference. The outwardly appearance can be misleading.

Just a side story. There is a local policeman here that is really over weight. Been a policeman here for maybe 30 years or more. When I was seventeen I had a school buddy who had a state record in the 100M and 110M hurdles. Kid could fly. He got into trouble and made a run for it. In a parking lot, with no obstacles or interferences he broke into a run. This fat cop, in fat cop shoes, ran him down over a 50 yard stretch. We had forgotten all about the transgression and the cause for the chase but we wore his hind end out in school on Monday. Moral to the story. Things are not always as they seem, and of course, never get caught by a fat cop in front of your friends. LOL. EWO

It is hard to get such dogs all the time. Sometimes the inbreeding pushes the dogs back to the heavier undershot bull dog type head. Which is O.K. if the head is not to large to the head body ratio. If backed by a powerful bull terrier body can still get the job done. I am not referring to a heavy under shot bulldog head. But a more blocker head like most of the Colby dogs had.

The type head I liked on a dog was the older Bull terrier wedge type head with the longer heavier muzzle and eyes more centered than spread apart. With a long neck, deep chested powerful bull terrier build and that rat tail swung down low. Not talking about those modern English Bull Terrier types like the Target dog.

Two examples on the head type I would prefer and body type would be dogs like CH Woodall's Weird Jack and CH Watt's Double Snort. Weird Jack at 44lbs chain weight and Watt's Double Snort at 40 lbs are really big boned athletic dogs for their show weight.

Mr. Hollingsworth foundation dogs were of this same type build. If I was buying a young dog or brood stock would prefer this type build if possible. Dogs like these with the longer neck, the longer muzzle and bull terrier wedge head. Can bite just as hard or harder than a under shot dog. They have that extra or longer reach that can enable them to get better holds or out of a bad hold.

Sort of the same benefits of the longer reach that one boxer has over the other. With all said though a Bumble Bee is not suppose to be able to fly with it's overly fat body and small wings. Yet it flies, and so with our dogs sometimes, with what ever head type they have. Put in proper shape many dogs that are not always built the best with a lot of heart can push on and win. Cheers

[No Quarter Kennel]

There are exceptions to all rules.
However, a fat cop, 99 out of 100 will not run down anyone, so we wouldn't breed for fat cops if we were breeding for track athletes would we.
That's kind of where I was going with this post.