I disagree that it's "stupid" ... Wise.Originally Posted by Wise
I do agree that it is an intense reaction to the stress of confinement, however.
Re-read what I said.
Jack
I disagree that it's "stupid" ... Wise.
I do agree that it is an intense reaction to the stress of confinement, however.
Re-read what I said.
Jack
Just to add a punctuation mark:
If you decided to tie 2 people up to a chain by the neck, which one do you think would be the best overall fighter and human being?
1) The guy who sat there, dull-eyed and docile, never understanding why he couldn't go anywhere, and who never tried to get off the chain?;
or
2) The guy who knew that chain was holding him back, and who yanked all-day, all-night at the chain ... trying to break it any way he could ... never stopping in his effort to destroy that chain and get off it?
Which guy do you call "stupid" ... and which guy do you think has more "spirit"?
To me, some dogmen show that they don't really know much about dogs at all ... or much else for that matter.
Jack
I disagree with the dog vs human analogy. Most of the dogs i've seen on chain dont really mind all that much and there could be more than a few reasons why one is trying to get off his chain.
And as far as your little endzone spike goes, i signed up to your site for entertainment purposes not to kiss ass or back up all your know it all posts with a hat tip. So, you know what they say about opinions....
The reason you gave for a dog to fight his chain is just one reason. Ive found some dogs are just destructive to everything they can touch, call it the stress of confinement or whatever. Outlets detour nothing for some. When they didnt have a chain they chewed a pen.
From what i have seen here, these few chain fighters that cant be detoured are more often than not unexceptional or some flat out dont start. So what may have been true with your dogs is not the case with these. Some call these dogs chain curs or chain bad asses. They act real willing until the hammer drops.
If it was the case that my more exceptional dogs were chain fighters on a consistent basis id have to breed far far away from that, which means culling. Why would someone stack the odds against their future dogs by incorporating that into a breeding program?
Why? Because it doesn't suit your baseless statements?
Funny how human psychology is literally based on dog psychology ... but I guess the facts of life don't concern you much.
We actually agree in a couple of respects, but not so much on others.
I agree, most of the dogs don't seem to mind so much, mine too. But that has nothing to do with what I said.
I said that many, if not most, of the chain-fighters (hole-diggers, balistic tree-hangers, etc.), or problem dogs in general, seem to have an inordinate amount of drive/intelligence ... and are NOT content just sitting there on the chain, like well-fed cattle.
Not sure what you mean by my endzone spike, but I don't need you to "back up" my posts, nor do I need you to kiss my ass either.
But it would help you live up to your chosen handle if you would give examples, and attempt to back up your statements with facts, instead of just posting mindless, cursword-filled one-liners.
Yeah, and it's also true that some are kept cleaner and smell better than others, lol
Jack
I've had those too ...
But I still think they're uncommonly driven dogs, usually.
Interesting point.
I agree it is a pain in the ass for a breeding program. But whoever said raising highly-spirited performance dogs was going to be easy
I've had some ordinary palookas that were hole-diggers, that's for sure, and I've had some amazingly-talented dogs that were pretty good on the chain. Silverback, for example, never chewed a thing: died as an old man with a PERFECT set of cutters.
So there are always exceptions to every rule I suppose ...
Still, your points conceded, I renew my statements that the most ordinary dogs are generally "ordinary" in every other way as well ... and that THE most spirited, intelligent dogs are almost always DEFIANT ASSHOLES in some way ... they refuse to accept being in cages, they refuse to accept anything but what THEY want to do ... and that is part of an Alpha-Dog's make-up IMO
Poncho wouldn't accept being "just another dog on the yard." He would bark all-day, every-day, until I chained him up to the rafters on my PORCH and gave him a couch to lay on. Only when he was in the #1 spot, and right next to the house, would he shut up and lay there content. He could never be in a crate or a cage either: would eat his way out every time. Same thing with being loose in a bedroom. If I left, he would try to eat his way out of the room and come find me.
I couldn't even turn him loose in a backyard ... he would run to the wall and try to jump over and get the dogs on the other side. He knew walls separated properties and that there were DOGS on the other side of them. I could "punish him" a thousand times, but he could care less. He wanted to do what HE wanted to do, and that is all there was to it. It was all EGO and DRIVE and there was no way anyone was going to dominate "his" spirit.
Only when he was sick and dying did he ever mellow out at all ... and then not by much.
Jack
At one time, I kept chain fighters around, determined to see if all this nonsense was worth the time required to fool with dogs with such barrier issues. Invariably, down to a dog, none of them were ever worth the wait as a mature adult.
One of my stud dogs, who is now gone, seemed to produce at least one chain fighter in each litter. None of them were ever worth a plug nickel, and the last one was 10 months old and not a tooth in his head. Needless to say, he had to go elsewhere. I never found that to be anything remotely like what Jack says in regards to dogs wanting to be with me. Those dogs would barely stop long enough to eat. They weren't interested in me. So while Jack's dogs may have been requesting his attention, the ones I had were never interested in such things.
The best dogs I've had came in all shapes and sizes. Some messed with everything without destroying anything. Some were just chill on their chains. They come in all shapes and sizes, but not one dog I ever raised to maturity that fought the chain ever amounted to anything. So, whenever I see that pop up here and there, those dogs have basically signed their ticket off my yard.
One last thing. I don't necessarily agree that being a defiant asshole is part of an alpha dog's makeup as most of the dogs I've had that were classified as such never messed with anything. I've had the few that did, but they've always been in the minority.
Good topic Dan.
Interesting that you made a study of it Frosty ...
I must admit, the specific characteristic of chain-fighting has never been a problem for me ... but dogs going nuts (running, digging, rock-chewing/root-pulling, barking constantly) ... have always wound up being some of my best.
Some of my very mellow dogs have been talented and game too, but most of my very best have been very animated (and often entertaining) out there on the chain
And, almost down to the last, they were absolutely angels inside the house ... very content to "be with their human" ...
However, about 50% of those ultimately were intolerable inside ... because they'd "go nuts" when I left, inside this time, and (well) I think yall can picture how that looked when I got back
Jack
@ Frosty,
I have to agree at least from my experience. Seems to me those dogs who seek to destroy shit are somewhat anxious or maybe insecure even
@ Jack,
I believe you are putting a human emotion onto an animal when the truth is we really have no clue why they do the things they do, right?
I totally disagree.
First of all, I never said dogs have "human" emotions; in point of fact dogs have dog emotions.
But they *do* have emotions.
I absolutely don't believe emotions are uniquely human.
In fact, I believe there are plenty of "clues" as to how a dog is feeling emotionally ... and why they do certain things ... unless a person is clueless.
Are you saying you can't tell when a dog is happy? Sad? Pissed off? Guilty? Nervous? Etc.?
Got news for ya: those are emotions
If you can't see these things in a dog, I truly believe you're clueless.
If you can see these things in a dog, then you also believe that basic emotions are NOT uniquely human ... AND that there are, in fact, CLUES EVERYWHERE to be seen as to what's going on in a dog's emotional state.
Jack
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