Bad Habits

[S_B]

LOL, mine too. But there aren't too many dogs that could "think on their feet" and outsmart some of the baddest dogs who ever lived, more so than Robert T and Robert T Jr. ... who beat 6 Champions and 2 Grand Champions between the father/son team.

I seriously doubt too many father/son dogs you know can make that statement ... and I for one would just about give my left nut to have those 2 dogs on my yard, along with a couple of my foundation bitches, because I know I would have hurt a lot of people's feelings with their pups

Jack

You are correct on that Jack!

I made a few phone calls to some folks who knew that blood pretty well. Mostly they all said Robert T was a good dog, but nothing extraordinary. One said GR CH Angus would have destroyed him if they had met. One said, who saw him while he was a great dog, he was no where near the baddest who ever lived.

And a good head dog really doesn't use their cutters as much as they use their molars.


S_B

[Officially Retired]

You are correct on that Jack!

I never doubted that for a second

I made a few phone calls to some folks who knew that blood pretty well. Mostly they all said Robert T was a good dog, but nothing extraordinary. One said GR CH Angus would have destroyed him if they had met. One said, who saw him while he was a great dog, he was no where near the baddest who ever lived.

Opinions are like assholes, only some stink more than others. The fact is, none of the people you called had dogs that could kiss Robert T's ass accomplishments-wise (or Zukill's for that matter).

Another fact is every dog that BOTH Robert Ts beat were better dogs (and fought for more money) than anyone whom you called ever had also

Indian Bootlegger, for example, was a devastating "killed everything" dog (cover of the Journal / talked about nationwide) that was backed by the Indian and Danny Burton, both of whom have seen/done more than anyone you called also. But Robert T. Jr. stopped that dog cold without a cutter in his head. Spotted him weight too.

Now, Zukill was a badass dog, but no one said anything about the Robert Ts being "badass" dogs ...
But the Robert T's damned sure STOPPED more "badass" dogs ... by riding them out into frustration ... than any dog you have ever petted in your life.

Like your clueless friends, Danny Burton (after he and the Indian lost with Bootlegger) told the old man that Robert T was "a cur-fighting head dog" ... and the Old Man asked, "Do you have anything his weight?", to which there was silence on Burton's end, seeing as he and the Indian just got cleaned out after watching the baddest dog between them quit to Robert T.

I don't know anything about Angus, but I know he wasn't any better than any of the 6 Champions and 2 Grand Champions both Robert Ts beat ... nor did he win as many fights, nor beat as many Champions as T Sr. ... including the 4xW Ch Gomez dog. Ch Gomez had killed all 4 dogs in :40 or less ... and was considered a "2-bite gut dog" ... if he got back there twice, you were dead. Men like Strothers (of Gr Ch Luther fame) and Hargrove (of Gr Ch Rufus/Outlaw fame) told The Old Man there was "no way" Robert T Sr. could beat the Ch Gomez dog. The Old Man asked ... "How much do you want to bet?"

That fight went 3:10 ... and Ch Gomez got back there a time or two ... but Robert T never relinquished his control ... and finally, at 3:10, Gomez took the count with a head the size of a pumpkin, shaking his blood/fluid-filled head in a state of confusion and exhaustion.

I personally wouldn't trade a hair off of Robert T's ass for Angus, and Angus will never have the record of Robert T, nor did he produce a single dog with the record of Ch Robert T Jr.

But you can think what you want. I have always said, and believed, that stupid-aggressive people like stupid-aggressive dogs.
And there was a mile-long waiting list of people with "badass dogs" looking to beat T and T Jr. ... the "ear-fighting curs" ... but they all went home scratching their heads and stitching up their wallets.

And a good head dog really doesn't use their cutters as much as they use their molars.
S_B

Thanks for the lesson on what "a good head dog" does ... I've only been breeding them for 24 years

Also, Zukill wasn't a head dog, but he killed 6 in under an hour ... with no cutters either ... any ideas as to why?

Jack


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[S_B]

Opinions are like assholes, only some stink more than others

Agreed

The fact is, none of the people you called had dogs that could kiss Robert T's ass accomplishments-wise (or Zukill's for that matter).

That is not a fact, only your opinion Sir. And one in which you can not substantiate as you do not know who I called.

Another fact is every dog that BOTH Robert Ts beat were better dogs (and fought for more money) than anyone whom you called ever had also

Another of your opinions. Fact is all the men I called have had CH's & GR CH's and over 200 years worth of experience in dogs between them, some of which fought for as much or more than the Robert T's. To say for a fact that none of the dogs they had between them were better can not be said with certainty.

I personally wouldn't trade a hair off of Robert T's ass for Angus

Nor would I want to convince you otherwise. We all are passionate about the truly great warriors that have graced the pit walls.

But you can think what you want. I have always said, and believed, that stupid-aggressive people like stupid-aggressive dogs.

I have never said what I personally thought about the Robert T's, I only reported back what was told to me by 5 different men, two of which saw the dog (Robert T). The stories were pretty much consistent though I will say that. So could jealousy have played a role in their answers I do not know, but of the 5 men, none ran together. And they each have good or even great dogs they are known for.

I can't stand stupid aggressive dogs, or dogs with bad habits! LOL But couple the two aforementioned behaviors with a badass dog, and I will make the exception.

Thanks for the lesson on what "a good head dog" does ... I've only been breeding them for 24 years

You bet Sir! haha

Also, Zukill wasn't a head dog, but he killed 6 in under an hour ... any ideas as to why?

Jack

Actually no idea, as I don't know anything about the dog, but I'm up for that lesson!


Oh, and I've petted some pretty badass dogs!

S_B

[S_B]

My apologies to Steely for getting off topic, I think we can all agree for the most part that while dogs with nasty habits are not ideal. We would all make exceptions on the ones that would truly contribute positives in the gameness and performance department. And we would incorporate them into our breeding program with those attributes more so than not for being asshole to keep.

Great topic and answers by everyone BTW!

S_B

[No Quarter Kennel]

So you're saying the gamest, most intelligent men in Alcatraz prison were the ones who "knew" they couldn't escape ... and sat around accepting their fate ... rather than the few who relentlessly tried and finally figured out how to do so?

I absolutely disagree.

I guess you think the gamest, smartest dog are also the ones who "know they can't win" ... and stop trying too? Again, I absolutely disagree.

The gamest, smartest ones are the ones who never stop trying and always figure some "way" to do what they want to do.

I was talking specifically about your example or analogy. The two men chained around the neck. I was commenting that the one that knows and understands he cannot break free of that situation with what is provided in your example, is the smarter or more intelligent human. Never suggested the "gamest, smartest dogs are also the ones who "know they can't win" so there's nothing for you to disagree with me there. You and I would have been on the same page on that one.

My old man teaches a cognitive intervention class in the state prison system here in Texas. The ones who KNOW and UNDERSTAND the situation and system they are in, are the ones who thrive and succeed. Those who buck that system are the ones, one way or another, are culled in some fashion or another. Either they end up with more time, less privileges, isolation, etc. I offer this b/c you used Alcatraz as an example. The only thing I would ask about the Alcatraz example is, did any of the escapees actually survive? If not, how smart where they? Does committing unintentional suicide equate to more intelligence than the men who never tried to escape? I'm not sure. I don't judge in this way b/c in this situation, I cannot say what I would do without BEING in that situation. Does it show more spirit? Maybe, maybe not. Who's gamer? The man who lives in Alcatraz the remainder of his life, or the guy who escapes and dies? Lots of things to consider and also why I don't think too many comparisons can be made b/t man and animal.

I guess to add to this thread or topic, I hate dogs that are a pain in the ass. Especially when I am feeding more than 10 dogs. I've fed enough good dogs and bad dogs to not have tolerance for them and to also know, I can feed, keep and have a good time with a quality dog that is not a problem. Had I never fed a "good" dog before and the only one I had was a dog that is always wrecking shit, I guess I would keep him. But not any more. If a dog is a barker, water bowl fighter, dog house fighter, extreme digger, etc., Then I will sure enough remove that dog one way or another.

The LG blood is a blood known for certain things. Like a lot of lines are, of course. LG was known for, or at least had/has a reputation for culling pretty hard. It shows in the females in his line. If a bitch did not do a good job of whelping and raising pups, she was a goner. Over the years, this has developed a line that throws extremely maternal females. Bitches that whelp and raise practically every pup thus making life easier on the owner. I'm sure there were some good dogs lost along the way, but I'm also sure there were good dogs passed on as well.

To each their own when it comes to property in the USA.....in my opinion.

[Officially Retired]

Agreed

That is not a fact, only your opinion Sir. And one in which you can not substantiate as you do not know who I called.

Fair enough. Enlighten me then

Another of your opinions. Fact is all the men I called have had CH's & GR CH's and over 200 years worth of experience in dogs between them, some of which fought for as much or more than the Robert T's. To say for a fact that none of the dogs they had between them were better can not be said with certainty.

Fair enough. Enlighten me then

Just know that, a mere 4 people (who likewise had more than 200 years' collective experience), and WHOM I NAMED ... called the Robert T's "curs" because of their style ... seen them go with their own eyes ... bet against them with their money ... AND LOST

So I will continue to take your second- and third-hand (nameless) opinions with more than just "a" grain of salt

Nor would I want to convince you otherwise. We all are passionate about the truly great warriors that have graced the pit walls.

True. And you never could convince me otherwise.

Even Danny Burton forgot the words of his own, self-admitted idol (Earl Tudor): "I will take a good ear dog and WHIP most of these so-called 'fast track' dogs ..."

And Robert T and Robert T Jr. PROVED THIS ... they were the the best ear dogs that ever lived ... 6 Champions and 2 Grand Champions defeated between the two of them ... 13 wins total

And I will bet no two dogs any of the people you've talked to can touch this

I have never said what I personally thought about the Robert T's, I only reported back what was told to me by 5 different men, two of which saw the dog (Robert T). The stories were pretty much consistent though I will say that. So could jealousy have played a role in their answers I do not know, but of the 5 men, none ran together. And they each have good or even great dogs they are known for.

See the last 2 responses I gave above ...

Fact is most "country boys" talk shit about ear dogs ... they want to see "FIGHT-IN" ... so they run their mouths at ear dogs ... but they too will have to pay The Piper when they face a good one.

I can't stand stupid aggressive dogs, or dogs with bad habits! LOL But couple the two aforementioned behaviors with a badass dog, and I will make the exception.

LOL< fair enough

You bet Sir! haha

Actually no idea, as I don't know anything about the dog, but I'm up for that lesson!

He liked the guts ... and the throat ... and would get whole mouthsful of each ... which only require pressure to kill ... not necessarily teeth

Oh, and I've petted some pretty badass dogs!
S_B

Again, fair enough

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

And for the record, yes, I have and will make concessions for exceptional dogs......but they have to be truly exceptional.
Fastest horse in the world will have concessions made for him bad habits as long as he's the fastest in the world and bringing home the money.

You can't put them all in a box.

[S_B]

Quote Originally Posted by CA JACK
Just know that, a mere 4 people (who likewise had more than 200 years' collective experience), and WHOM I NAMED ... called the Robert T's "curs" because of their style ... seen them go with their own eyes ... bet against them with their money ... AND LOST

So I will continue to take your second- and third-hand (nameless) opinions with more than just "a" grain of salt

Jack, I'm not going to name drop, two of those men saw the dog with their own eyes. One had stuff down from that dog, and even saw Bob, another was going to buy Bob from the breeder who also owned Ethyl, and suggested I call him as he is still alive and well today.

[Officially Retired]

Okay, then I probably know them. Or know of them.

But you never did answer the part about, did any of them have two dogs that won 13x collectively ... or that beat 6 Champions and 2 Grand Champions?

Being old and having "an opinion" of a dog is one thing;
Having your opinion at any point = having/showing a more accomplished father/son duo is quite another

Jack

[S_B]

Okay, then I probably know them. Or know of them.

But you never did answer the part about, did any of them have two dogs that won 13x collectively ... or that beat 6 Champions and 2 Grand Champions?

Being old and having "an opinion" of a dog is one thing;
Having your opinion at any point = having/showing a more accomplished father/son duo is quite another

Jack

Ok, so off topic, I will try to answer this the best I can.

-Did any of them have 2 dogs that won collectively 13 times?
YEP! 1 of the 5 off the top of my head.

-Beating 6 CH's and 2 GR CH's?
Not that I can think of, but I respect their opinions just the same.

-Everyone has an opinion fact, and some of them are old fact, but not all of them!

S_B