Redboy / jocko has made more dead game dogs !

[Officially Retired]

Is it me or is jack just trying to get somebody to say. They fight dogs ,or give up names .i may be wrong but that is what seems like .but jack you are a smart boy look them up,you will probably find some .if you was talking about hogs I could tell you a few ,,but the fighting part is out of my league .

It's you Sonny. You're a lowlife who introduces bullshit into a discussion.

The dogs I am talking about are LONG DEAD and nobody is "in danger" for making a list of dead dogs and their accomplishments.

If you don't want to talk about bulldogs online, then don't get online and talk about them.
But if you DO talk about them, and if you DO make great big, outlandish claims about what you have, then expect to be taken to task and back up your mouth.

The truth is, you don't mind running your mouth about your dogs making other dogs "dead game" on your original post here at all.
You don't mind putting up your backyard, 3x winning dogs on this database. You don't mind talking about how your dogs "have it all."
You don't mind CLAIMING this, and CLAIMING that, but when asked to produce the actual dog names of MULTI-winning Grand Champions, you go to himmin-and-hawwin and make up a bunch of excuses. Go back to page 1 and there you are bragging about killing and deadgame.

But when somebody asks you about 5x, 6x, 7x-winning dogs from you, you start stuttering.
And when somebody cracks their knuckles, and starts pulling away the curtains to see what you got, you start running for cover like a cockroach, hissing, and getting upset that THERE ARE NO dogs of your preferred bloodline that are "up there" with the absolute baddest, winningest dogs of all time.

There was no reason to start insulting.
This was either your opportunity to back up your big claims, or to sit down and realize that it's a great big world out there.
To admit and realize there are OTHER GREAT COMBINATIONS of dogs that have actually DONE BETTER than the RBJ combination. And that is a FACT.

Again, that doesn't mean RBJ dogs aren't good, with some truly great. I never said or implied this.

But what I did want to do is stick a pin in your little "hot air balloon," and I am sorry if this (literally) burst your bubble.

You might not want to make completely false claims next time to your "green audience" ... because there are people here who know better

Jack

[Officially Retired]

but to classify them together with all carved dogs is like saying the penicillin you buy at the feed store is the same as vancomycin. It's not.

Well, we're classifying all the RBJ dogs into one hat too, are we not?

And, no matter how you slice them, or mix them, the RBJ combination, by iteself, is NOT winning as many contests as ANY of the Eli/Carver combinations ... unless THEY TOO have Eli/Carver in them ... which combo already wins at that level WITHOUT RBJ

So, which combo truly is "the winningest" then?

I can even be more specific, and say IRONHEAD/BLACK WIDOW dogs ... and the record of these dogs STILL trumps every single pure RBJ combination that every existed

Yeah.. you can bring Eli carved for mouth, ,but unless it's got any tombstone Bolio or redboy jocko, they seldom make 45 minutes if they run into one that can give it as good as they can.

That is flat out untrue. Again, the greatest, winningest dogs EVER are not RBJ. Only Barracuda is up there, and he is not pure.

I agree that Bolio dogs are among, if not THE greatest Carver dogs ever ... but there are PLENTY of Boomer/Satch/ButcherBoy/Honeybunch (and a host of other) Carver dogs that have gone the route and achieved the highest accolades in APBT history. Almost all of them are Ironhead/BlackWidow-type dogs.

Mouth does give a lot of dogs a free food pass. And you may see an 8xw, 7xw with all that good ole Eli blood,but what you don't talk about is the 8 siblings that quit.

I agree with you that pure Eli dogs are nowhere near as consistently game as some of the other lines ... but ELI/CARVER dogs are a whole different deal, and THESE are what have REPEATEDLY AND CONSISTENTLY produced THE BEST dogs in the world, more than any other combination, ever.

And I don't run that line either, I am not promoting "myself," so I have no dog in this fight.
I am just trying to be ACCURATE in what I say based on THE HISTORICAL FACTS that are easily searched and proven here.

That does not mean that my line, or your line, or even Sonny's line haven't produced great dogs. THEY HAVE.

It just means that THE multi-winningest cross isn't RBJ, it's Eli/Carver.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Well, we're classifying all the RBJ dogs into one hat too, are we not?

And, no matter how you slice them, or mix them, the RBJ combination, by iteself, is NOT winning as many contests as ANY of the Eli/Carver combinations ... unless THEY TOO have Eli/Carver in them ... which combo already wins at that level WITHOUT RBJ

So, which combo truly is "the winningest" then?

I can even be more specific, and say IRONHEAD/BLACK WIDOW dogs ... and the record of these dogs STILL trumps every single pure RBJ combination that every existed






That is flat out untrue. Again, the greatest, winningest dogs EVER are not RBJ. Only Barracuda is up there, and he is not pure.

I agree that Bolio dogs are among, if not THE greatest Carver dogs ever ... but there are PLENTY of Boomer/Satch/ButcherBoy/Honeybunch (and a host of other) Carver dogs that have gone the route and achieved the highest accolades in APBT history. Almost all of them are Ironhead/BlackWidow-type dogs.





I agree with you that pure Eli dogs are nowhere near as consistently game as some of the other lines ... but ELI/CARVER dogs are a whole different deal, and THESE are what have REPEATEDLY AND CONSISTENTLY produced THE BEST dogs in the world, more than any other combination, ever.

And I don't run that line either, I am not promoting "myself," so I have no dog in this fight. I am just trying to be ACCURATE in what I say based on THE HISTORICAL FACTS that are easily searched and proven here.

That does not mean that my line, or your line, or even Sonny's line haven't produced great dogs. THEY HAVE.

It just means that THE multi-winningest cross isn't RBJ, it's Eli/Carver.

Jack

We can whole heartedly abiut the ironhead black widow cross. I myself like the boomerang and snooty dogs, that's obvious from the dogs that I own. I don't agree with Sonny, but I do like the redboy jocko line, agree about Baracuda, and point out that Hollingsworth himself bred to Yellow. Most winningest dogs.... That's a hard conversation, even with facts. Different eras of dogmen have different opinions. Colby? Lightner, Tudor? Heinzel?It's a great topic . What role did the E.Crenshaw really play in the cold Ironhead dogs? Only Maurice knows.

[Officially Retired]

We can whole heartedly abiut the ironhead black widow cross.

Yep.

I myself like the boomerang and snooty dogs, that's obvious from the dogs that I own.

Good point. A man's actions speak what he likes. My own Hollingsworth dogs were upgraded by the addition of Ch Hammer, a grandson of Boomerang. This is doubly-true if Ch Hammer's true pedigree is really off of Reuben. That would make my line, essentially, Eli/Carver/Clouse (mostly Carver/Clouse).

I have never wanted to add Eli (or RBJ either), but I tried RBJ through Mayday and it worked very well. I tried RBJ too, through Waccamaw's dogs, and the results were not nearly as good as through Mayday.
This made Sonny mad, hence the bad blood, but those were simply THE FACTS as they pertained to my dogs and my results. I do not have time to worry about anyone's feelings, that is just the way it went.
Some of the Waccamaw crosses WERE good, really good, but overall it did not in any way compare to the Mayday crosses (which had more Hollingsworth blood), and that is just the way it turned out.

Now, those Poncho/Mayday dogs were very consistent in producing dogs "capable of winning" ... in fact, capable of beating the BEST (as they stopped a few Champions and even 2 Grand Champions) ... but, though excellent, none of them was actually able to be a multi-winning 7xW itself.

So there is a difference between being "focking good" ... and being "focking GREAT"

But hey, there is nothing wrong with having damned good, rock-solid, absolutely consistent dogs capable of winning 1-3/4x against the best dogs in the world
Nothing wrong with that at all.

But becoming a 6x, 7x, 8x, and 9x winning Grand Champion, who beats multiple Champions, is a whole other level, too, isn't it?

Now, 1 or 2 dogs DOWN FROM my dogs have done this won 6, 9 shows, etc. ... but they ALWAYS had Eli or Chinaman blood in there ... and I have to be honest enough to admit and acknowledge this

Poncho's sister Ruby was bred to the straight Eli/Carver male Cates' Rambo, and that produced the winningest dog in Japan's history, Okabe's Gr Ch Jigilu (9xW), who beat 4 Champions in a setting like the professional boxing world where they have mandatory challenges of best-to-best.

I did not make that breeding, and I would not have made that breeding.

However, in hindsight, and with the benefit of a database like this, to really see what's going on out there, maybe I should have made more breedings like that
I was always afraid of losing my gameness percentages, but maybe I should have focused more on upgrading in some areas (mouth/destruction).

Maybe I should have made some pure Eli injections of something like Trump's Shotgun into my dogs, and/or the Rambo dog, and taken my bloodline to a whole new level? I don't know.

I am not sorry for anything I have done, as I love my line and am very proud of its consistent ability to win, and its ability to face and beat most any ONE dog you want to put in front of them.
They will be there, do what it takes, take what they have to, dish out what they need to ... and KEEP COMING ... until they WIN ... and they are able to do this 85 out of every 100 shows they have.
But the ability to win 7, 8, or 9 fights has never happened to one of my pure dogs. And the only time it has happened involving my dogs is when bred to an Eli or Chinaman-type dog.

Funny thing is, my dogs have WHIPPED both Eli and Chinaman dogs ... but when my dogs have been combined with them, some of the individuals have achieved a level of success that my "pure dogs" never have.

Anyway, all I am doing here is "thinking out loud" ... TALKING DOGS ... I am not running down my own, or any other, bloodline.

This particular section of the forum is called BLOODLINES AND BREEDING THEORIES ... and the WHOLE PURPOSE of the calculating and quantifying Search Engine and Statistics Page is to plug-in what criteria we're after and come up with some DEFINITE CONCLUSIONS about what is producing what, which combinations work, and which combinations don't ever seem to get "up there" ... to separate FACT from fantasy.

There is no question that RBJ dogs produce winners, Champions, and Grand Champions. Regularly and consistently.
So do my dogs, so do your dogs.

But when we raise the bar, and start looking at Grand Champions of Grand Champions, the simple fact is, if it does not have Eli/Carver in there somewhere, it's NOT going to get super-high stats.

And, again, I don't run that stuff. I have never really tried to add it to my stuff.

But I think I should have ...

I don't agree with Sonny, but I do like the redboy jocko line, agree about Baracuda, and point out that Hollingsworth himself bred to Yellow.

No one with any intelligence or honesty can agree with Sonny.

And, as much as I have taken it upon myself to give credit to Hollingsworth ... and to preserve his name, his bloodline, and his dogs on into posterity ... he was just a man.

And, as great as that breeding was, and as successful as it has become, historically, it is still NOT the winningest litter of all time.

Further (and more importantly), we are still MEN ... who don't have to mindlessly follow in ANY man's footsteps ... without deviation.
We have the right (and responsibility) to THINK ON OUR OWN ... to take tools (like this database) and USE those tools to come up with some EVEN MORE creative or successful ideas of our own

Most winningest dogs.... That's a hard conversation, even with facts. Different eras of dogmen have different opinions.

Disagree here.

In this case, "opinions" make no difference. WinningEST = numbers.

And when you're dealing with numbers, the #, the PERCENTAGES, and the FACTS are the only things that matter.

Colby? Lightner, Tudor? Heinzel?It's a great topic .

It is a great topic, and all of these guys were influential, there's no doubt.

But which dog combos are the most successful IS able to be calculated and quantified BY THIS VERY DATABASE ...
That is why I worked my ass off so long to bring it into existence.
Breeding dogs has always been my passion, along with APBT history.
This is also why it is so important to add the data accurately and precisely.

Is it a perfect system? No.
Are there missing dogs or inaccurate data? Yes.
But it is still THE BEST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD for calculating dog data and quantifying statistics that has ever been put together

And, you know what? If Sonny, or anyone, knows of a particular dog that isn't in here THEY CAN ADD IT.
There are nearly 40,000 dogs in here now. In 10 years we'll probably have 200,000.

With guys like CYJ and S_B cleaning things up on meaningful dogs, and with most people now entering dogs correctly, this will ultimately be THE place to be to understand what genetic combinations produce what for the serious dogmen.

Here's what it WON'T do:

It won't give someone a good eye for a dog;
It won't make any particular dog "good" or "bad";
It won't make a person a good conditioner/handler.

But it WILL give dogmen and breeders THE BEST POSSIBLE PERSPECTIVE OF THE FOREST ... so they don't let the "little trees" on their yard get in the way of seeing the whole deal

What role did the E.Crenshaw really play in the cold Ironhead dogs? Only Maurice knows.

Aren't Ed Cranshaw's dogs behind the Steve's White dogs?

Honestly, I highly doubt it. And here's why:

1) those White dogs never really became multi-winning Grand Champions on their own, while Carver/Eli dogs repeatedly do, and
2) those dogs have long bodies and no ability ... while Carver dogs are fast and athletic.

So I personally don't believe it. But, you're right, only Maurice knows for sure.

Jack

[cdj396]

Hey Jack not taking no sides but would like to know what
CJY said about the RB DOG most of my yard is based on them thanks tj

[Officially Retired]

Hey Jack not taking no sides but would like to know what
CJY said about the RB DOG most of my yard is based on them thanks tj

He's already shared his experiences here.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Hey Jack not taking no sides but would like to know what
CJY said about the RB DOG most of my yard is based on them thanks tj

Honestly, amigo, you shouldn't worry about what anyone says, including me.

My dogs haven't produced "the baddest of the bad" either.
A few have with crosses, but NONE of my pure dogs has ever made it to Grand Champion.
Most of my dogs just win when asked to, or sometimes lose, game, with a few not-so-game.

If you like your dogs, and if you're winning with them (or producing winners with them), then what else do you need?

But when you're talking about THE winningest combinations possible, you have to LOOK AT what's putting them out there.

I love the Hollingsworth dogs, but only ONE pure Lady In Red dog ever made Champion.
Most either won (or lost game) on 1 to 2 deals. At most.
But they were absolutely beautiful, absolutely game dogs. Nothing wrong with that.

I believe that the Hollingsworth dogs are the most consistently-game dogs ever, but I don't think they're the "baddest" or "multi-winningest" dogs ever.

There's a difference.

There is no reason for anyone to get mad, kick rocks, or sniffle boo-hoo over the statistical facts that can be harvested here.
They don't make your dogs (or my dogs) "suck" or anything else.
I love my dogs and I am absolutely confident in them beating anything their weight and then some. I am sure you feel the same way about yours.

These statistical tools merely give us quantified information.
From that information, we can all rub our chins and make more informed choices, that's all

Jack

[cdj396]

well thanks for the information tj

[Milky]

He's already shared his experiences here.

Jack

Some good and interesting reading right there.

[evolutionkennels]

Honestly, amigo, you shouldn't worry about what anyone says, including me.

My dogs haven't produced "the baddest of the bad" either.
A few have with crosses, but NONE of my pure dogs has ever made it to Grand Champion.
Most of my dogs just win when asked to, or sometimes lose, game, with a few not-so-game.

If you like your dogs, and if you're winning with them (or producing winners with them), then what else do you need?

But when you're talking about THE winningest combinations possible, you have to LOOK AT what's putting them out there.

I love the Hollingsworth dogs, but only ONE pure Lady In Red dog ever made Champion.
Most either won (or lost game) on 1 to 2 deals. At most.
But they were absolutely beautiful, absolutely game dogs. Nothing wrong with that.

I believe that the Hollingsworth dogs are the most consistently-game dogs ever, but I don't think they're the "baddest" or "multi-winningest" dogs ever.

There's a difference.

There is no reason for anyone to get mad, kick rocks, or sniffle boo-hoo over the statistical facts that can be harvested here.
They don't make your dogs (or my dogs) "suck" or anything else.
I love my dogs and I am absolutely confident in them beating anything their weight and then some. I am sure you feel the same way about yours.

These statistical tools merely give us quantified information.
From that information, we can all rub our chins and make more informed choices, that's all

Jack

That's as honest as it gets. I feel machobuck could have won 10. Just cause he was a bonafide killer. But a kennel accident took the cartilage out of his joint and we had to put a steel plate in there , and it would swell after two weeks of work.. Even swimming. So.. it wasn't in the cards.