Originally Posted by CRISIS
Yes, exactly right.
It takes a large yard to be able to do this, to have sub-families within a main family, but that is in essence what all great breeders do, pretty much.
Yes, exactly right.
It takes a large yard to be able to do this, to have sub-families within a main family, but that is in essence what all great breeders do, pretty much.
In fact, look at the WIC of the dog you posted
At 4 generations the WIC of the dog you posted is ZERO.
At 10 generations, it is only 7.
And yet he is still essentially 50% linebred Chinaman, top and bottom, via inbreedings on two completely different aspects of the same family.
By contrast each parent is 25-28% inbred at 4 generations, and 36-45% inbred at 10 generations, each inbred on different, specific individual Chinaman dogs.
This means you can take 2 inbred Chinaman dogs and "outcross" them to each other, because they're inbred on different individuals
This is a fabulous example of exactly what I meant by saying a person can "outcross within his own family" and essentially keep his dogs "Purebred X" forever
I myself really stick to this style of breeding. I've been doing it with out a big yard but luckily having small litters and taking it one breeding at a time. Its a slow process but my dogs stay consistent and are holding the traits gen to gen and picking up the ones I add with each breeding. If all goes well I will be blending the best offspring from 2 sisters together next. One male is a backcross pulling the main old blood and traits up front that I needed with one sister. The other sister was bred to male heavier linebred on another individual in the family. Hopefully those to males I introduced traits stick when its all together. I also have a heavy inbred male that is a nephew to the old male I back crossed with to pull genes and traits forward off his brother and sister. We shall see how this family forms if all goes well.
Want to share a ped?
I have to finish putting dogs in the data base. Soon as I do I'll post.
That is very nice!
The other aspect of inbreeding a very tight family that few understand is making a "cross within the family" not based on pedigree or inbreeding coefficient, but rather on traits. I use every trait I can identify to determine where the genetic influence is coming from; from coat color, down to whether they shit in the same spot or not. Being "too inbred" on paper does nothing to sway me away from a breeding, but seeing the wrong combination of traits in the prospective parents sure might. I am quite certain when I mention my dogs with a 75% inbreeding coefficient, many people think I breed too tight. Even though we have perpetuated these same dogs in an unbroken chain since 1990, having shown, tested, and evaluated every aspect of these dogs, someone looking at a pedigree may still be audacious enough to make a judgment. I can produce dogs with 93 to 99% inbreeding coefficients, but selection for the right traits is everything! Meanwhile, the critics of my breeding practices would take 25 years of experience and effort, and blow it into pieces with a single outcross. No thanks!
Great post ... and, trust me, I feel your pain in that last sentence.
That is the first move every greenhorn (and not too bright old hat) wants to make is "an outcross" ... it's almost like an idiot-reflex.
Awesome thread!
LOYALTY BEFORE ROYALTY !!!
I myself did everything in a certain order.
Years before I created my own family I studied & learned as many ways.
The 1st lesson I learned was to know what to use & what to get rid of.
Fire!!! You can only pick 3 if there is a fire & you need to maintain your family. Which ones to you take with you if you have a fire?
I picked the 3 & cleared the yard. That room is need for future breeding's.
In order to pick the best you must go thru the whole litter each litter.
Picking pups based on looks won't cut it if you are basing your dogs on performance.
I was told to stick with 3 at a time. You can maintain better with lessor numbers & identify problem when they come up easier with less blood working with. Last good one , 1st bad is always the problem.
I knew I would have to make my own outcrosses to maintain a single standard.
Families are like Trees . More than one root, more than one branch & more than one leaf. You may like a certain dog but get better pups going heaver with another & using that dog as the out cross.
I knew the importance of not combing all at once in case cross did not work out well you won't have to get rid of all & start over from scratch each time.
It was more important to me to find breeding styles or breeding schemes for many of breeders as a whole on average more than just dogs that made families stand out. Good families will always produce great dogs over time but great dogs may never produce a single good family.
The same dogs bred different ways can give you different results. Even belly mates will go in different directions.
One example is Sorrell's Bull & Indian Bolio . Even though not belly mates, they have the exact same blood from exact same dogs but are bred different .
Different Breeders used different styles in developing there own families. In time dogs even looked different even though have same core.
It was more important on dogs style than it was how bred. If dog worked than all ways good. If dog didn't how he was bred did not matter.
It's always best -best ,but the breeding scheme stays in a certain order order. The bulldogs will always show you which ones in what litters to breed .
1st step was basing bulldogs on what I liked in a working dog & not even caring about how bred.
After locking in the desired traits this would be a core. But you can change the core just as you do the top & bottom.
Lock in traits by 4 generations . Take one that closet to family standard & breed to 2 other dogs that have what foundation dog is lacking in.
Find purest version. Now restart process with new set of 3 dogs & create a new Core dog.
This will be your new foundation . A solid base that should keep the style you like.
Same as before, once foundation is locked in add 2 more dogs to keep the vigor & ad what dogs may lack in.
If core is based on 3, one you created & 2 well established , new 2 dogs should also be based on 3 families.
I use 9 pure-almost pure families combined into a single family.
As long as I line breed more than inbreed than chances are I will never need to out cross again even though I have other dogs as outcrosses already.
I used over a dozen different breeding schemes over the years . Got good results from more than a few but I stick more to one that is just as time proven as the breed itself these days.
After so many generations the dogs are set in a family standard. Even though there are 9 families in it , each litter looks the same or close enough to it to know that they are of the same family.
The 9 families I used to make a family not only works for me but can also go with other families.
The family broken dog consist of ;
Hicks, Sorrell's, Browns (Alligator) as the base.
Clemmons(Eli/Zebo) , Reddick's (Herman=Eli) , Holland's (Red Boy)
And Patrick's (Bolio) , Ratliffs (Butckus =Bolio/Tants)& Crabbs ( Maloney)
When it's all said and done, I spent too many years with them not to have my own.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=62787
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