If you look at the statistics Jack posted on our very own DOY & runners up as well as GDOY & runners up. Something is apparent take a look...
Originally Posted by CA Jack
It has been told to me by the old fellas I've hung around the 4 way crosses are your match dogs, while your inbred or linebred dogs are your game dogs.
What are some of your thoughts?
S_B
Well, as far as "match dogs" go ... they are ALL match dogs
And, before the losses, 2 of those Grand Champions (and one DOY) were both highly inbred dogs ...
And, of those 8 dogs, there are 7 distinct individuals (as April won twice) ... and of those 7 individuals only 2 are scatter-bred, 2 are linebred, and 3 are inbred.
So, as far as I can see, linebreeing and inbreeding produced 5 out of 7 of those top-top-notch animals ... and all 4 of the gamest entries.
Of course, Titere is the king of the hill ... but can you really depend on scatter-breeding ... or was Titere the proverbial "Hail Mary" result?
Interesting questions ...
Jack
My thoughts are a dog with ability, smarts, durability and gameness makes for a good prospect. The breeding of the animal is used as a tool for breeding purposes.Well, as far as "match dogs" go ... they are ALL match dogs
Jack
My thoughts are linebreeding and inbreeding bring you more consistent results ... and while random crosses can bring you some phenomenal dogs ... I wonder how many don't make it by comparison.
The other phenom bitch, Ch Nereyda is 36% inbred at 13 gen.
The other double-DOY Gr Ch Vengeance was 39% inbred at 13 generations (while the Gr Ch who lost to him, Hobo, was totally scatter-bred%).
Another Grand Champion/Grand Champion-defeating dog was Gr Ch Buck who also was 39% inbred also at 13 generations (while the Gr Ch who lost to him, Sandman, was only 14%).
Double Gr Ch Tornado was 35% inbred at 13 generations, etc.
Tietere is Titere ... but I think this year's crop shows that only 2 out of 8 places came by way of scatterbreeding, 2 by linebreeding, and the rest by inbreeding ...
It is a great topic to be sure ...
Jack
What really gets me is that Titere is really 3/4 line bred Chinaman other than the touches of Hammond and Eli it's consistently brought back chinaman. Even Chinaman brother Boy to his mom is part it his ped. Looking at his I went and did a test breeding of a male back to his mom that was 44.3% coefficient and the same dog bred to his mom sister was only 19.8% coefficient. To me Titere is bred much tighter than the names and coefficiency system tells. Had this discussion with a buddy last night that saw Titere. He said he didnt think Titere would really produce. I really begged to differ. Had my shot I guess to breed to him when he was a 2xw. I just want to be on record as saying I believe Titere will produce. Just look at the 3/4 outside of the very top 1/4.
Thats a good eye and if you look at the Hammond stuff you will see that its just a touch!
As for his production time will tell gotta keep in mind he was only bred twice on the hunt. The tricky thing with him is you can go three diffrent ways with him and still have a shot!
For us it wasnt so much as to lining up names in his ped to names in our bitches ped but more so breeding the BEST female we had at the time that also brought a hell of a lot to offer on her own!
I do not think there is an actual term for trait breeding outside the family of dogs being used. If one breeds within a family, be it inbreeding or line breeding, it is the traits that are the desired results. So a lot of scatter bred dogs are _________ (fill in the blank with the new word for 'trait bred' outside family lines). Scatter bred usually carries a negative connotation.
Lots of scatter bred dogs were bred in the 'best to best' mindset. If both of these 'best' dogs were game dogs, good head dogs, better than average mouth with a lot of ability lots of times these traits will pass if bred back to the same. The negative aspects of scatter breeding is when it is two individual dogs with no bloodline in common and no traits in common, but both were good dogs, and I think that is where the 'Hail Mary' comes in to play.
Lots of those monsters come along when the low percentage freak mouth dog is bred to the talented game dog in hopes of all those traits finding their way into that one puppy. And when it happens it is usually in that one puppy. And that one puppy is usually where it stops.
I doubt breeding unrelated dogs with the same traits will be the same percentages as line breeding or inbreeding but I do think breeding unrelated dogs with the same traits is a step up from scatter breeding. EWO
Posted about Ch. Angel some time ago. Her story is really similar to that of Rushin' Bills 35. She was free. She was bought out of the paper buy a knot head kid who pawned it off on his Mom and Grandmother. They had her in a 10X10. She climbed it every day and went to my buddy's house to 'play' with all those dogs he had tied out. He carried her home every day. Finally the lady asked him to take her. Here is a dog, a new 10X10, a new igloo house, a couple bags of food and an expensive bicycle attachment. Just take her no charge.
Ch. Angel left four or five RIP dogs in her wake. Two of her three wins were RIP in the box and one shortly thereafter. She won BIS once and GIS once. She was not a monster of any sorts but she worked and worked hard until she got where she wanted to be and when she got there it was pretty much over.
She had papers and we did not know any of the dogs. A person could not purposely scatter breed a dog any more. Odds are if you bred a bulldog in the late 90's you get some credit for creating this killer. Damn near every breeder and every bloodline was crammed into her six generation pedigree. She put the scatter in scatter bred.
She was bred to a tightly bred Bolio male that was consistently breeding winners and got like 1 good dog out of the four that were born. She was bred to a Redboy/Bolio dog who also had produced winners, crosses as well, and got nothing.
The scatter bred method worked in that instance. But after being skull drug and killing her way to the Ch. title, that was it. End of the line. She was the 'Hail Mary'. EWO
I agree with you.
I have posted elsewhere that I think the Redboy in Titere is more of a "fluke" than anything else, as there are many multi-winning, Champion-defeating, 5-7xW linebred Chinaman-type dogs, but it would be a long search to find such a multi-winning purebred Redboy dog
Rather than be heavily bred on a particular Chinaman dog, there are many different "Chinaman dogs in general" back behind Titere, with the Boomer out and the pinch of Hammonds, which is mostly Carver blood anyway. Titere is definitely the type of dog to "drop anchor" with. If it is possible to breed him back to his mother, or one of her sisters, I would do it in a heartbeat. Or a littermate sister to his father. Anything I could do to preserve/replicate that "genetic mix" is something I would most definitely be in the process of doing.
Whoever says that you "can't breed dogs too tight" and win at the top of the food chain needs to re-read my post 5 posts ago ... and then read the top post and study the fact that 5 out of 7 dogs which received our Highest Honors this year are line- to inbred animals. A man could literally spend the rest of his life line- and inbreeding on Titere and never go "too tight" with him ... but they could isolate and harness his genetic superiority with the right line/inbreeding decisions, and by keeping and going forward with the right individuals.
I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time trying "new crosses" with Titere, who is already an amalgamation of crosses himself. I would be trying to preserve and replicate him, by using his closest relatives, and making sure the most promising pups get into the most capable hands, who also know how to take care of pups.
Another thing about breeding dogs to remember, when dealing with cross-type dogs, is your first effort to inbreed might be disappointing ... but if you linebreed it back again, you get what you're hoping for
That is a step most people can't accept or won't take ... the proverbial gold-digger who stops 3' from a vein of gold, and goes home (treasure undiscovered) because "it didn't pan out so far" ...
Jack
In hindsight, knowing what I know about linebreeding and inbreeding for 25 years with the same dogs I started with, if you would have taken (say) that one good male off of her, and bred that male back to her, I would bet a million dollars to a penny you would have "upped" your percentages.
Had you bred the one good other dog back to her, you would have "upped" your percentages ...
And had you interbred those two mother/son groups of dogs together, you might have had the beginnings of a bloodline.
The thing about random-bred dogs is the randomness of what you can expect out of them ... however, if you get "that one" that comes out the way you'd hoped, you take that one right back to the great random-bred dog itself, to INbreed on that great dog, and you'll see your % go up considerably in the next output ...
Jack
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