The sad part is, these dogs are superior in every way compared to most other dogs.....additionally I find that these dogs are superior in many ways to their owners
The sad part is, these dogs are superior in every way compared to most other dogs.....additionally I find that these dogs are superior in many ways to their owners
This is a good topic for discussing and one I've always been compassionate about but not so outspoken over. One reason for this is it can be used as fuel by those who feel that sporting or working/hunting dogs is a form of cruelty, I mean after all one is illegal. And whether or not I personally agree with the law doesn't change the fact that enough folks believe it is cruel enough to take away a humans freedom and destroy their lives over it.
This discussion can be a slippery slope or gray area for me because I struggle with where do I or we draw the line? I'm a firm believer that I should mind my own business and not worry myself with my neighbors or friends affairs and I expect the same in return. So long as it is within certain parameters of the law (there's the slope), I couldn't sit back and knowingly ignore if my neighbor was abusing their child, but if they chose to partake in other activities I'd just mind my own so long as it doesn't hurt anyone or affect me.
I talked to a well known dog woman once who strongly felt that it is absolutely none of anyone's business what one chooses to do with their animal even it they tied that animal to a tree and let it starve to death. I was pretty astounded when she said that one reason being this lady took top care of her animals. I'm sorry but that belief system is a bit to extreme for me to support, I love these dogs and nothing justifies doing that for me.
Then there is the comparison to serial killers and other crimes against humanity that even amongst ourselves we are guilty of making. Sad thing is it can be true in some instances, there have been so many unsavory characters in these dogs and I don't believe for one second there is a direct correlation in all instances. Some folks are just shitty human beings who happen to like dogs. Also I don't necessarily think it has gotten any worse these days as there has always been those who just care for the gamble with no regard for the life of their charge.
I do think with so much social networking that opinions have and are becoming imprinted on folks and people are more likely nowadays to be a little more conscientious. Young dogmen have unlimited access to places like this to seek out the correct way to care for bulldogs. But I'm also not to naive to realize what was said here previously about how lazy and disconnected from the real world some can be.
I/we have always tried to surround ourselves with like minded individuals but there is always the acceptance one must weigh out when dealing with dog folks. We can't all agree and we can't all be right in our line of thinking or actions. I can't bring myself to sell dogs because of the struggle with this as I feel it puts me into that category I don't agree with. So I continue to starve while my dogs think I'm rich lol But its a choice I have been ok with but one I think is silly at the same time.
Hopefully more will chime in on this subject. I do want to pose a question....I think most here enjoy the history if these dogs and want nothing more than to preserve that. How do we justify a combat dog to someone who deems it cruelty?
S_B
It is very simple: necessary vs. unnecessary. Positive vs. negative.Originally Posted by S_B
Courage is a GOOD thing.
Trying to capture, harness, and repeatedly PRODUCE dogs with courage is a GOOD thing.
Fighting, to determine superiority, courage, mettle, athleticism ... is a GOOD thing ... it is positive, and it PRODUCES EXCELLENCE.
Allowing perfectly healthy, game animals to die is NOT good, it's not constructive, it is DEstructive.
Beating a dog to death produces nothing good. No excellence is achieved.
Letting a dog die produces nothing good. No excellence is achieved, maintained, or preserved. It is WASTEFUL.
If anyone has a brain in their head, they should automatically be able to compute "good" from "bad" ... CONstructive versus DEstructive ... etc.
People who breed dogs to be outstanding warriors, who test/select, but destroy NOTHING are **builders of excellence**
People who buy dogs, leave them down, let them die, hang them from ropes/disembowel them are DESTROYERS of excellence.
This really shouldn't have to be explained.
It is necessary suffering versus unnecessary suffering.
If you want big muscles, you have to suffer through work to get them. It's good suffering, because it's necessary for the existence of a superior physique.
If you want to be a good fighter, you're going to have to suffer through some beatings, cuts, bruises, because it's necessary for the existence of acquired skill.
But to just get hacked-up for nothing is UNnecessary and destructive. To kill and abuse dogs is unnecessary and destructive.
They DO have to suffer a certain amount of abuse to be tested and proven, but they DON'T have to get totally mutilated and killed to see their quality.
This should all be common sense and require no explanation.
The big questions are ... is this suffering NECESSARY? Is the result of this producing something GOOD?
If the answer is NO, don't do it, and don't allow others to do it.
Nice S_B.Lots of good points.
Couldn't agree more.
I have always been a dog lover. I have always been a fight fan.
I could stay in these dogs forever, and never get tired of watching new pups grow into world class athletes, and seeing prime specimens of these dogs "do their thing" ... and shine doing it ... or show dogged determination to keep trying when they're outgunned. I could never get tired of seeing a yardful of athletes, of my own design and breeding, all happy to see me come out with a cup of coffee in the morning.
What I *can't* stand, however, is (1) the unbelievably-cruel imbeciles in this sport who do things that should never be done, and (2) being lumped by the general public as "one of them," as if I am cut from the same cloth, which I most assuredly am not.
Guilt by association.
Even if I do my best to be as fair and good to my animals as I can possibly be, just doing these dogs puts you in the same category as child molester to the general public.
Jack
Exceptions to society's opinion is what its all about.None of us are out to prove society wrong but to give some of these animals stand up representatives.If we caved to what society thinks we would be a bunch of liberal bleeding heart yuppies.Our society's influence should be basically ignored in every way possible by anyone who values individuality.Its influence is a joke.Only a fool would allow society's influence to keep them from any certain passion or drive for the sake of not allowing themselves to be labeled or judged wrongly by the whole.That to me is the reason that society is as weak as we find it today.Most people are ignorant.They do not think for themselves and definitely dont question or think why or if what they've been taught is correct.They ask is this what everyone thinks? Well it must be so.
Good point. But then there comes a time where we must decide for ourselves where our values lie.
For many years, all I cared about was bulldogs. To the exclusion of all else (family, society, relationships, etc.)
I bred my share of winners, I put out books, and I worked tirelessly day-and-night contributing more insight and concepts to this game than 99.99% of any man who ever called himself a "dogman" ... and I am still contributing in my own way, above and beyond what anyone else has ever put together, with this website.
But I enjoy my ONE dog now.
I don't need to die on a yard of 60 dogs to "prove my passion" for the APBT.
I have poured myself deeper into these dogs, living and breathing nothing but bulldogs, every day of my life, from the moment I woke up, to the moment I went to bed, for 13 years straight (out of 20-something total years). I have done my time in a more intense fashion than most (essentially) "part-time" dogmen. Most people in these dogs work 8-10 hours a day, come home and toss-out some dogfood, and call themselves "dogmen."
Every waking moment of my life was all about these dogs for nearly 1.5 decades.
I made 100% of my income from dogs and products having to do with dogs.
Didn't sell drugs, didn't have a job, just was 100% into these animals.
I have had at least 10-15 bulldogs for more than 2.5 decades.
I still value these dogs, but I have other things to do with my life now.
It also becomes a question of risks vs. rewards. Lotta risk, little reward (for me) anymore.
Now I like to travel. And, since I am working again, I know where my money's coming from and that it doesn't have to involve selling a dog to someone who might do it wrong.
I also enjoy not having stress because of these dogs. Not have to field a thousand questions about pups for sale.
Yet I am still interested in their history and in providing the best info possible on their care and breeding for people still into the breed.
I like to be able to appreciate other people's dogs, and breedings, without secretly thinking to myself, "I have one at home that would whip that," lol
This allows me to be unbiased and just observe what others are doing more objectively.
Buy my new passion is wildlife photography. It's just as exciting in many ways, with ZERO downside, ZERO negative, and a lot more inner peace.
My heart will always be in these dogs, but my head told me it's time to do something else with my life. At least as far as physically owning a large number of dogs.
But I can still enjoy the breed here, and when I walk my one doggie, lol
Jack
Well said, and I have felt this way myself… I've owned and worked with many other breeds but there is nothing like a good bulldog.
Excellent posts S_B and Jack, you bring up good points. There are some other thoughtful comments here too, good discussion.
If one goes back and looks thru some of the Pete Sparks 1950s era Your Friend & Mine magazines, the participants were mostly average middle class folks who just admired a good game dog. After the laws changed, most of those folks got out rather than endanger their families. Thus there was a shift in the type of people in these dogs.
And then you get the animal rights people and the spread of misinformation (that you have to force bulldogs to fight, feeding them gunpowder, bait dogs, etc.) and the huge impact of the media in a negative way. How can the general public even get a fair chance to correctly understand these dogs?
Plus now you have all those so called "pit bulls" that are so far from a true gamebred dog that they may as well be another species. I recently took a walk down the row of dogs offered for adoption at the local SPCA and all I saw were over sized "pit bull types" that were 80 plus pounds and spooky unsound acting dogs. Yet these are called pit bulls and this is what much of the public believes is a "pit bull".
All of this adds up to the plight of the bulldog today. A superb breed of dog that unfortunately is not always appreciated and valued for what they are.
Common sense isn't so common these days.
And this is why I consider this one of the better sites out there! Its people that really care about another living thing!
This was a point i was trying to make on the thread breeding young dogs! I have taken in more then my fair share unwanted pitbulls and other breeds.
I have also got into a fist fight with a sum bag over beating his dog with a stick. Well as it turned out the dam dog love this ass wipe and bit the shit outta me! Lol
But that same guy now understands what i was trying to explain to him. It took for another dog that he owned to dam near kill him not once but twice for it to click to him. B.u.t he got the point and does great with the breed now!
Sad part is so many good dogs get put down because the tuff guy shit! "O he or she didnt start at 18 months old put em down! See that same dog that was kept in a crate till 18months old go live in the house and have his very own couch and do 1:20 off that same couch! Go figure.
To hurt a small animals or any animals are the very first signs of a sociopath!!
Also i think its up to us to eductate people and more so the guys that are just getting into the breed on proper management! Or gift them with them with THE PITBULL BIBLE to read!
A downer to read about things like this!
SCG this is spot on, the AR nuts and H$U$-alikes are spewing pure bullshit to the general and like Bingo stated people just can't fucking think for themselves any longer. And the macho pussy type wannabe dogmen always have something to prove.
Jack you don't have to convince me, I'm on board buddy. But this isn't gonna fly with the general. That's what I was getting at. I can just imagine one of those folks reading our comments here dissecting our every word yelling hypocrites!
S_B
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