INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

[Officially Retired]

It is old news to most people that Indian Sonny was the rightful owner of Indian Bolio, and that Bolio was stolen by Pat Patrick's partner (Lou Louis) and that Pat wound up with Bolio. Well, I was just doing some thinking about "what if" Pat Patrick had never received the stolen Indian Bolio from Lou Louis ... would linebred Bolio dogs be a stronger force today than they are now?

On the one hand, because Patrick was mostly a dog-seller, the fact Patrick got ahold of Bolio, bred him a lot, and sold all the pups, created the ability of THE WHOLE FANCY profiting and benefiting from the prepotency of Indian Bolio.

On the other hand, truth to tell, the more I look at the pedigrees, the more I like the breedings of Indian Sonny's dogs better

• For example, Bolio's most famous offspring in the hands of Patick has to be Patrick's Red Baby.
• The thing about it is, Indian Sonny's best Bolio bitch, Ch Indian Bloomers, decimated Red Baby's sister ... and everything else she faced.

Sure, Indian Bolio produced some great dogs for Patrick, like Ch Princess and her brother Chen Leng, but I like the Corvino & Eli blood behind the Indian Sonny dogs better than I like the Clouse blood. For one thing, the Eli blood is more powerful and can win in its pure form (while today's Clouse dogs can't), and for another the Corvino blood Sonny used is just as game as the Clouse dogs, but are built MORE rugged and durable IMO.

While, admittedly, it would be hard for any bitch to beat Red Baby's production record, it still doesn't change the fact that Indian Bloomers (also a heavy Bolio dog) beat the mess out of Red Baby's sister. While, of course, this is not definitive, it gets you thinking. Moreover, while the amount of truly great dogs coming from Patrick was astounding, once he received the stolen Bolio and bred the daylights out of him, the very fact that Patrick sold his Bolio dogs everywhere was as much a factor to their success as was their quality. (Sonny didn't really make his dogs available.) So, yes, most of the direct offspring of Bolio retained his prepotency, a la the linebred Gr Ch Ojo Azul, but so did Indian Sonny's linebred Bolio dogs, as with Hook's Gr Ch Rowdy.

In fact, Gr Ch Rowdy was bred to a daughter of Red Baby to produce A & M's Ch Red Dog, which is in the pedigree of Hollingsworth's Dolly. With the help of Yellow, this elevated the game, tough Hollingsworth dogs into the game, tough, elite level of the Mayday generation.

Meanwhile, the same blood as Gr Ch Rowdy, using only Indian Sonny's combinations (Bolio/Eli/Carver/Corvino) made Champions and Grand Champions left as it is, such as Jesse Rods' Gr Ch Midnight.

It is hard to rate one line over the other. Patrick's Bolio dogs (with Clouse and Tombstone) have certainly been WAYYY more influential, but again that is because Patrick was selling his dogs all over the world, while Sonny kept his private, selling only to a very select few individuals. Had Sonny been able to keep Indian Bolio his whole life, and kept his Bolio/Eli/Corvino combinations rolling ... and especially if they really got out there, I think they possibly could have stood the test of time better than Patrick's versions.

It was mentioned on another thread that the pure Clouse dogs now lack bone and "need help" to be competitive, while pure Eli-type dogs are capable of still making Champion and Grand Champion, as they are, and pure Corvino dogs are still durable as rhinos and can survive any onslaught and go 3 hours. Anyone who is truly familiar with Pat Patrick's bloodline knows that most of Pat Patrick's purebred Bolio dogs have gone the way of the Clouse dogs (tiny, thin-boned, can't win).

So I am thinking out loud here: what if Pat Patrick hadn't have received the stolen Indian Bolio? What if, instead, Indian Sonny would have kept his rightful ownership of Bolio, continued to breed Bolio to the best Eli bitches possible, and the best Eli/Corvino combinations, and bred these daughters back to Bolio? Might these have been even better? Might the line still be more competitive, in its pure form, today?

Remember, what we call "pure Bolio dogs" are really pure Bolio/Clouse + Bolio/Tombstone combinations (with, of course, the various paper-hangings of Reuben and other Carver dogs in there)

But what if, instead, these were linebred Bolio dogs, with Eli/Corvino combinations ... like what demolished Red Baby's littermate sister?

While no one can deny the historical "contributions" of Pat Patrick's thievery, combined with his disseminating Bolio dogs all over the world ... the question remains ... was that "the best possible" history for the Indian Bolio bloodline ... or was an even better history taken, and not realized, simply because Indian Sonny had better-bred brood bitches to use than what Pat Patrick had available?

If the Clouse dogs "can't compete today," in their pure form, while the Eli dogs still can, and if the majority of Patrick's bloodline has basically deteriorated the way of their shared Clouse ancestry ... I know which I would rather continue on with, if I were given the choice.

I also know for a fact that Eli/Carver and Eli/Bolio dogs tend to make it higher-up the win column than do pure Clouse dogs as well as pure Bolio/Clouse dogs. This is a fact that can be seen, both with the benefit of hindsight, and with the ability to crunch the statistical data that we have here in this database.

Both versions have produced winners. Both versions have produced Champions. Both versions have produced Grand Champions. However, when you start clicking our Bulldog Statistics Feature ... and you really start looking at the highest level possible 7x, 8x, and 9x+ winners ... you will repeatedly find Bolio/Eli or other Carver/Eli combinations, not Bolio/Clouse or Bolio/Tombstone combinations (with the exception of Buck, who had Zebo in there).

Therefore, realizing this ... and realizing that Eli and Eli/Carver combinations are the most consistent ULTRA-high achievers ... that are able to go beyond mere 5xWs ... what would you do if you had to choose which way to breed Bolio as your own stud dog? To Sonny's Eli/Carver & Corvino bitches or to Pat Patrick's Clouse-type bitches ... and which version would you rather get a linebred specimen from?

Jack

[EWO]

Since this is an opinion post, I'm not a breeder nor a Patrick/Sonny historian, I will chime in on what I have seen or owned.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=42272

This was an extremely talented, as game as they come and could flat shut it down. He won two but had one of the gamest scratches I have ever seen. Most "Bolio bred Patrick dogs" are not really know for mouth. This Kasai male consistently threw a boat load of mouth to everything he was bred to. Granted most were crosses, and the bottom half had some biters but he elevated the mouth of everything he was bred to.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=12915

Same with this male. Both he and his sister could flat shut it down. (A more recognizable name like Tarheel Matt can attest). I have never seen a dog that flat enjoyed his profession like Cornbread enjoyed his. His sister was like him but more talented.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=41369

This is a dog that if all his tools were graded none would be considered exceptional. He did everything well just not outstanding. His best attribute was he would stay between a dog's eyes for as long as it took. 2 minutes, 2 hours, or 2 days. All the same to him. We ended up will all of the litter except 1 all of ours were match dogs.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=41364

This dog developed bad habits after his career got going. 1st one was impressive and the second was done without a full compliment of hardware.

If I had to make a call I think I would lean toward the dogs off Bolio would have been better with Sonny but at the same time they would have not been as accessible. Basically odds are, and just going on odds, if Sonny ends up with Bolio I never get to own any of these dogs above. Since Patrick did, I was able to stand on top of them. If that makes sense.

Sort of fence riding but I don't see Sonny inbreeding the dog and spreading the offspring all over like Patrick did. I see one making better match dogs and preventing me from having that chapter and the other making it possible thru accessibility.
Sorry if I babbled. RWO

[Officially Retired]

That's the rub, I guess: would they be available?

We already know Sonny would inbreed Bolio back to a 3/8ths daughter of his (as he did with Indian Pups), so the questions that remain are: 1) which was better for the breed (really, fancy)? versus 2) which would have created the stronger line?

There is no question that, as it happened, Bolio's influence went further and wider, under Pat's breeding program, than it would have under Sonny's ... but my question is, which would be the stronger family, NOW?

I think that, structure-wise, and the ability to stay competitive as a pure line, I would personally prefer the way Sonny was breeding his dogs.

Jack

PS: There is a lot of "non-Bolio" blood "papered as Bolio" in the topside of your pedigrees

[EWO]

Agreed. Since we know how things turned out on one side of the equation I will ponder a guess on the other. I would say over time there would have been more winning match dogs from Sonny breeding Bolio. I agree there would be some inbreeding but I would ponder he would breed Bolio that same way he bred the other "Bolio" dogs. The Carver/Corvino/Clause and Eli dogs would be under Bolio and then those dogs back to the Sonny 'Bolio' dogs. I imagine there would have been a lot of winners from those breedings. In time the argument would then be which family was carrying the other, but that would be an entirely different topic.

How a dog is papered has never really carried a lot of weight with me, or the guy that turned me onto the dogs. Fake papers are easily 'corrected' with high standards and consistent selection, i.e., Hammer and Rueben.

EWO

[EWO]

I'm thinking from Indian Sonny the line would be a lot more of 50% Bolio dogs winning a bunch of matches. Over time I think there would be less "pure Bolio" dogs (and I will take the Patrick's versions as accurate for this series of posts).

Not being an expert on Sonny but from the outside looking it his breedings looked like he was trying to get to the box with each breeding. The Patrick versions looked like it was dogs being bred to make dogs to make dogs....or even dogs bred to make dogs to be sold in order to make dogs for the box by others. If that made sense.

Still fence riding. If Sonny has Bolio more winning dogs would have come from Bolio and more wins from grandkids. Pat put them in more hands. Bolio-Redboy, Jeep-Bolio, Snooty-Bolio, Buck dogs in many versions, the list goes on. I think the family would have been better off with Sonny in possession but the game end up better thru accessibility.
EWO

[Officially Retired]

Agreed. Since we know how things turned out on one side of the equation I will ponder a guess on the other. I would say over time there would have been more winning match dogs from Sonny breeding Bolio. I agree there would be some inbreeding but I would ponder he would breed Bolio that same way he bred the other "Bolio" dogs. The Carver/Corvino/Clause and Eli dogs would be under Bolio and then those dogs back to the Sonny 'Bolio' dogs. I imagine there would have been a lot of winners from those breedings.

We agree.

More importantly, as we get more evolved as dogmen, we can hold HOW a dog wins to a higher standard

Do we want clubfighter level wins?
Do we want dogs that win, but can't be matched afterward?
Do we want dogs that win like Floyd Mayweather?
Or do we want dogs that win like a prime Chavez and Duran?

The dogs Patrick was producing, for the most part, were excellent 1-3xWs, and his Grand Champions were nothing out of the ordinary (save Buck).

There are no Clouse dogs EVER beating multiple Champions that I know of ... nor could Tombstone have won more than a couple before he, too, had to be retired ... but MANY combinations of Eli- and Eli/Carver-type dogs have done this.

If we are going to "raise the bar" as we progress as dogmen, are we going to be satisfied only producing "average, competitive" dogs? I look back on my own record as a breeder, and I had an extremely high level of success "winning" (or "losing extremely game") ... sometimes over some pretty good dogs/dogmen ... but NONE of the dogs I bred personally were devastating 7xW type dogs in elite competition.

Now, I bred a dog that beat a 6xW and another that beat a 5xW ... and quite a few beat Champions ... but these dogs from me, themselves, never made it passed 1 and 2. Good dogs, yes. Truly elite? No. I am just being honest.

My dogs have produced about 10 dogs that made Gr Ch, only 2 of which won more than 5, both of which had Eli influence, not Clouse, not RBJ, nothing

Zukill (6xW) had a pinch of Chinaman; Jigilu (9xW) was a straight Eli/Carver cross. Zukill had no cutters and yet still killed everything between :19 and :48 ... and no dog made it passed :42 with Jigilu. And the funny thing is, my dogs were almost never crossed with either Chinaman or Eli-type dogs, and yet the times they were there were superstars.

Another such cross was Jackson's 45. Although only a common 2xW, his wins were BOTH DOA, in :17 and :19, from holds on the back of the head. While Andy Capp flat-killed only 1 dog in 5 fights, by taking it out with 1 crushing skull hold, Jackson's 45 killed 2 for 2 that way, and in a lot quicker times than Andy Capp did. Nobody wanted anything to do with 45 after he won his second fight & had yet another opponent twitching like a chicken on the pit floor, from a second fatal head hold in just a few minutes

MOK, who bred the dog along with Jackpot Kennels, was a close friend of BBC (who campaigned Gr Ch Amboss, Ch Bullet, Gr Ch Psycho, etc.) MOK saw all these dogs' matches, and was around some pretty good dogs in his day, and he said none of them could stand up to 45. He was lighting fast, a wizard on defense, and killed 2 dogs stone dead with head holds, without getting bit back.

That kind of POWER is just not going to happen with "Bolio/Clouse" blood

Bolio/Clouse blood will produce game, slick, talented, wonderful dogs fully capable "of winning" ... maybe 1, maybe 2, maybe 3-5 ... but if you want to be able to kill multiple dogs AND/OR win 7, 8, 9x ... you are going to need Eli blood in there (for the most part).

So my point is, I have ALWAYS been a fan of "game, tough, smart" ... in high percentages ... but as I sit back and review history, my own dogs, as well as the dogs of others, and (with the benefit of this database) I am able to crunch the numbers, look at the recipes, and "think out loud" ... I can honestly say I wish I would have gotten a hold of some linebred Indian Sonny-type dogs early in my career, and bred them to Poncho/Missy, as Cates' Rambo was bred by Mr. Nice Guy to their sister Ruby. I wish I would have added this kind of blood to my mix, for a lot of reasons, but MOSTLY to add the kind of elite-level power that some of these other lines have.

Don't get me wrong, I love my line, and they have STOPPED any number of Eli-type dogs in the past, and I would bet on my percentages over them any day of the week. But sometimes the best solution isn't "either/or" ... sometimes it's BOTH.

I don't think I could possibly improve on my "percentage win record" ... but what I most definitely could have improved upon was the ability of my dogs to FUBAR something, right away, AND still keep their gameness ... if I would have incorporated the right blends of more Indian Sonny-type blood (or any high-quality Eli or Chinaman blood) and "less" extra helpings of Patrick-type Bolio/Clouse blood.

JMHO,

Jack

[apeman]

I agree that Indian Sonny was doing the better/more interesting breedings with Bolio. However, I do not think they would have made any more of an impact then Sonny's dogs did in our actual historic timeline. I think they would be a private pocket of bad ass dogs that got out to other groups here and there.

On the flip side, what direction would Patrick have gone in if he never acquired Bolio? When I ponder this question I take into consideration the opinion of The Old Trucker, who was a partner of Pat in the early 70's. It was The Old Trucker's opinion that though Bolio probably would have Most likely KIB Tombstone the best decision Pat made was to breed to Tombstone and to acquire other dogs from Maloney. He believed the Maloney dogs added durability and gameness that carried those dogs over into the next couple decades.

With that said, I believe Pat would have bred the balls off of Keno, Tombstone, and Chico man. As well as added more dogs into his program such as Ruben, Luther, and Satch. I think the outcome would be dogs similar to Robert T and other dogs we've seen off the Maloney/Carver, Maloney/Eli/Carver blends except there would be a massive amount of those dogs world wide. Furthermore, if you factor in Patrick still adding any bolio and/or Noe Regrets dogs he could get his hands on we'd see some interesting things.

Irregardless Indian Sonny would have a bad ass pocket of dogs we'd salivate at owning. Nonetheless, Patrick would mass produce a game yet thicker bone line of dogs that would win game world wide for some and made even better by a few other breeders.

[MOSES]

We agree.

More importantly, as we get more evolved as dogmen, we can hold HOW a dog wins to a higher standard

Do we want clubfighter level wins?
Do we want dogs that win, but can't be matched afterward?
Do we want dogs that win like Floyd Mayweather?
Or do we want dogs that win like a prime Chavez and Duran?

The dogs Patrick was producing, for the most part, we excellent 1-3xWs, and his Grand Champions were nothing out of the ordinary (save Buck).

There are no Clouse dogs EVER beating multiple Champions that I know of ... nor could Tombstone have won more than a couple before he, too, had to be retired ... but MANY combinations of Eli- and Eli/Carver-type dogs have done this.

If we are going to "raise the bar" as we progress as dogmen, are we going to be satisfied only producing "average, competitive" dogs? I look back on my own record as a breeder, and I had an extremely high level of success "winning" (or "losing extremely game") ... sometimes over some pretty good dogs/dogmen ... but NONE of the dogs I bred personally were devastating 7xW type dogs in elite competition.

Now, I bred a dog that beat a 6xW and another that beat a 5xW ... and quite a few beat Champions ... but these dogs from me, themselves, never made it passed 1 and 2. Good dogs, yes. Truly elite? No. I am just being honest.

My dogs have produced about 10 dogs that made Gr Ch, only 2 of which won more than 5, both of which had Eli influence, not Clouse, not RBJ, nothing

Zukill (6xW) had a pinch of Chinaman; Jigilu (9xW) was a straight Eli/Carver cross. Zukill had no cutters and yet still killed everything between :19 and :48 ... and no dog made it passed :42 with Jigilu. And the funny thing is, my dogs were almost never crossed with either Chinaman or Eli-type dogs, and yet the times they were there were superstars.

Another such cross was Jackson's 45. Although only a common 2xW, his wins were BOTH DOA, in :17 and :19, from holds on the back of the head. While Andy Capp flat-killed only 1 dog in 5 fights, by taking it out with 1 crushing skull hold, Jackson's 45 killed 2 for 2 that way, and in a lot quicker times than Andy Capp did. Nobody wanted anything to do with 45 after he won his second fight & had yet another opponent twitching like a chicken on the pit floor, from a second fatal head hold in just a few minutes

MOK, who bred the dog along with Jackpot Kennels, was a close friend of BBC (who campaigned Gr Ch Amboss, Ch Bullet, Gr Ch Psycho, etc.) MOK saw all these dogs' matches, and was around some pretty good dogs in his day, and he said none of them could stand up to 45. He was lighting fast, a wizard on defense, and killed 2 dogs stone dead with head holds, without getting bit back.

That kind of POWER is just not going to happen with "Bolio/Clouse" blood

Bolio/Clouse blood will produce game, slick, talented, wonderful dogs fully capable "of winning" ... maybe 1, maybe 2, maybe 3-5 ... but if you want to be able to kill multiple dogs AND/OR win 7, 8, 9x ... you are going to need Eli blood in there (for the most part).

So my point is, I have ALWAYS been a fan of "game, tough, smart" ... in high percentages ... but as I sit back and review history, my own dogs, as well as the dogs of others, and (with the benefit of this database) I am able to crunch the numbers, look at the recipes, and "think out loud" ... I can honestly say I wish I would have gotten a hold of some linebred Indian Sonny-type dogs early in my career, and bred them to Poncho/Missy, as Cates' Rambo was bred by Mr. Nice Guy to their sister Ruby. I wish I would have added this kind of blood to my mix, for a lot of reasons, but MOSTLY to add the kind of elite-level power that some of these other lines have.

Don't get me wrong, I love my line, and they have STOPPED any number of Eli-type dogs in the past, and I would bet on my percentages over them any day of the week. But sometimes the best solution isn't "either/or" ... sometimes it's BOTH.

I don't think I could possibly improve on my "percentage win record" ... but what I most definitely could have improved upon was the ability of my dogs to FUBAR something, right away, AND still keep their gameness ... if I would have incorporated the right blends of more Indian Sonny-type blood (or any high-quality Eli or Chinaman blood) and "less" extra helpings of Patrick-type Bolio/Clouse blood.

JMHO,

Jack

So, I have to ask, did you see the 45 dog? Did you see any of the Bullet dogs or Amboss?

[Officially Retired]

So, I have to ask, did you see the 45 dog? Did you see any of the Bullet dogs or Amboss?

No, but what difference does that make?

I just explained that MOK did.

MOK is not an exaggerator, and has bred/shown enough winners (and been around enough top shelf dogs LIKE Amboss and the others I just finished describing) to have his opinion matter to me.

And he was not the only one saying these things either.

Jack

PS: And let me also add that, aside from BBC, MOK is personal friends with Al White, Junior Bush (Crenshaw's mentor), and his uncle was Drew Favre (as in Favre's Luke), just to name a few, so he is not just some guy online with 'a cool internet avatar' (like some people). MOK is a second generation dogman with some pretty solid contacts.

[Officially Retired]

I agree that Indian Sonny was doing the better/more interesting breedings with Bolio. However, I do not think they would have made any more of an impact then Sonny's dogs did in our actual historic timeline. I think they would be a private pocket of bad ass dogs that got out to other groups here and there.

Well said, agree.

On the flip side, what direction would Patrick have gone in if he never acquired Bolio? When I ponder this question I take into consideration the opinion of The Old Trucker, who was a partner of Pat in the early 70's. It was The Old Trucker's opinion that though Bolio probably would have Most likely KIB Tombstone the best decision Pat made was to breed to Tombstone and to acquire other dogs from Maloney. He believed the Maloney dogs added durability and gameness that carried those dogs over into the next couple decades.

I agree with this, and it's an interesting twist to take the dialogue. Again, I have nothing but respect for the Maloney dogs, etc., but to me they are just AVERAGE (but tough, game) dogs. I do not see any world beaters coming from the Maloney dogs, just high-percentages of dependable, super-game dogs that (ironically) can sometimes outlast and beat a world beater, though they themselves will never become one, so there's the rub

With that said, I believe Pat would have bred the balls off of Keno, Tombstone, and Chico man. As well as added more dogs into his program such as Ruben, Luther, and Satch. I think the outcome would be dogs similar to Robert T and other dogs we've seen off the Maloney/Carver, Maloney/Eli/Carver blends except there would be a massive amount of those dogs world wide. Furthermore, if you factor in Patrick still adding any bolio and/or Noe Regrets dogs he could get his hands on we'd see some interesting things.

I think Patrick clearly had good taste in dogs, as he also owned the Tater dog ... who, he says, was stolen by Indian Sonny and given back to Bert Clouse ... who matched the dog old and let him die. So, without Tater, Pat only legitimately had Tombstone as a stud, and illicitly Reuben (breeding him without telling anyone). Patrick got his fame as a breeder via Bolio (a stolen dog he hung papers on), so historically Pat Patrick is pretty much pond scum compared to his historical peers. Not that every breeder was a saint, I realize this, but I think Pat has to be looked at a little less admirably than men who bred their own great dogs and built a line on them (or who obtained their dogs legitimately).

Getting back to the subject of dogs, and top-shelf blood, I do agree Patrick could have succeeded with Tombstone and Maloney dogs, but not nearly as well. I think the Tombtone dogs were solid, but not as fast or high-ability as Bolio dogs. I do not see anyone dominating anything with pure Maloney dogs. I do not see 6x, 7x, 8xW Maloney dogs as I do Eli/Carver and Eli/Boilio dogs. Together, Bolio and Tombstone dogs created a legacy, but I just think (in hindsight) an even bigger legacy would have been created with the Eli/Carver/Bolio combination (that Sonny had access to) as opposed to the Bolio/Clouse/Tombstone combo Pat used.

Ronald Boyles kind of did this with his dogs, but I honestly never liked the Hank blood (everyone who owned him, sold him), and I just think Sonny's Eli/Bolio dogs were a lot cleaner-bred than Boyles'. Sonny was also well-connected to the best Eli resources on earth, back before there were the tag-alongs, which I feel is important also.

Irregardless Indian Sonny would have a bad ass pocket of dogs we'd salivate at owning. Nonetheless, Patrick would mass produce a game yet thicker bone line of dogs that would win game world wide for some and made even better by a few other breeders.

That is a pretty good assessment, I agree.

Jack