INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

[Officially Retired]

How a dog is papered has never really carried a lot of weight with me, or the guy that turned me onto the dogs. Fake papers are easily 'corrected' with high standards and consistent selection, i.e., Hammer and Rueben.
EWO

There is a difference between how a dog is "papered" vs. how a dog is bred.

How a dog is actually bred is quite relevant IMO ... which can explain a lot, including the mouth of your stud

Agreed. Since we know how things turned out on one side of the equation I will ponder a guess on the other. I would say over time there would have been more winning match dogs from Sonny breeding Bolio. I agree there would be some inbreeding but I would ponder he would breed Bolio that same way he bred the other "Bolio" dogs. The Carver/Corvino/Clause and Eli dogs would be under Bolio and then those dogs back to the Sonny 'Bolio' dogs. I imagine there would have been a lot of winners from those breedings.

That is exactly what I imagine.

In time the argument would then be which family was carrying the other, but that would be an entirely different topic.

Well, that is my whole point, really.

The Bolio dogs are pretty much "carrying" the Clouse dogs IMO. They also pretty much carry the Maloney dogs. Do you see a lot of multi-winning "pure" Clouse or Maloney dogs out there? These dogs pretty much need the Bolio dogs to be known. You don't see anyone using pure dogs of these lines, anywhere, and those few individuals who do have them, don't use them. Yes, Tater was a great dog in beating Rastus, but he died his next fight. Patrick's Tuffy won 2. But that was a long, long, long, time ago. Same with Maloney dogs. How many pure Rodger Crabb dogs are out there winning 3-9x, like pure Eli dogs and pure Carver dogs do?

But you do still see the occasional heavy Bolio dogs, like Andy Capp and Amboss, still winning over the best in the game, if the deck is shuffled just right. Which again is my whole point. If Bolio had been consistently crossed with truly badass stock, you would be seeing multi-winners from the line a whole lot more.

The very fact that you can MAKE the argument, who was carrying whom?, in an Eli/Bolio merging underscores the power of my point here

The very fact both pure Eli dogs, and pure Carver dogs, are repeatedly and consistently able to make Champions and Grand Champions, on their own, IS my point

Because you would be merging an amazing athlete in Bolio, with amazing power in the Eli dogs, with a 1/4 shot of amazing gameness/durability of the Corvino dogs ... rather than merging an amazing athlete with ordinary game dogs, with structural problems inherent in the line, as in the Clouse dogs ... with more game dogs in the Tombstone line. In other words, there is nothing really extraordinary about either the Maloney dogs or the Clouse dogs on their own ... they actually brought Bolio down IMO. (Or, he raised their ability, however you want to look at it.)

The entire thrust of my thread is the fact that Bolio would be merging the athleticism he brought with the brute power of the Eli dogs (who can win and become Gr Ch on their own, pure), and I think replicated over time, you would come out with much, much more capable animals, and much more frequently.

That is my belief at any rate.

[MISTER]

My question has always been if Sonny knew who took/had his dog then why didn't he go retrieve him? A dog of that caliber, performance and production wasn't retrieved by his rightful owner just boggles my mind. And how was Patrick still so highly praised when the entire world knew his entire yard/existence was built off pure fuckery

[Officially Retired]

My question has always been if Sonny knew who took/had his dog then why didn't he go retrieve him? A dog of that caliber, performance and production wasn't retrieved by his rightful owner just boggles my mind. And how was Patrick still so highly praised when the entire world knew his entire yard/existence was built off pure fuckery

According to Patrick, he stole Bolio from Indian Sonny because Sonny stole Tater from Patrick first, and shipped him back to Bert Clouse (who matched the dog again and lost him). So maybe Sonny knew he "deserved" the retaliation.

Another reason could also be because Pat's yard was a fortress. If you've ever been there, Pat's property was surrounded by chain/barbwire, with 120 bulldogs chained inside, with 4 to 5 150-lb Fila Brasileiros wandering loose, ensuring no one could "sneak in" without the entire yard resounding with dog barks ... followed by attacks from multiple loose enormous guard dogs ... with Patrick living in his trailer with a high-powered rifle propped-up at each window. Not the kind of setting to provide "an advantage" to any intruder. (Remember, when Patrick finally got raided, they had to drive over his fence with Swat Team vehicles to gain access.)

But, yeah, on the rest

[Officially Retired]

Also, really look at the pedigree of Patrick's Tater.

His topside is bred a lot like Eli/Carver dogs (who tend to be heavy Dibo and Williams mixes).

Allen's Redman (Tater's sire) is Tater's father ... who was sited by Ritcheson's Jerry, Dibo's brother. He was bred to a heavy Williams bitch in Ritcheson's Kitty, like Black Widow, which is 1/4 Tudor's Jeff, a devastating son of Dibo.

So, again, that is where the power of Tater was coming from, IMO. His topside was very similar to the Eli/BlackWidow blood he was facing.

Eli was inbred Blind Billy (100% Dibo/AZ Pete/Bambi), while Black Widow was 1/4 Dibo, 3/4 Williams blood. That exact same pure-Dibo over Williams-1/4-Dibo combination is behind the Eli/Carver BEST crosses. This combo has been a mainstay in the very best, multi-winningest dogs in the the sport.

Look at the pedigrees and see if you agree that is also where Tater's power came from ... the same basic combo on his topside: Dibo/AZ Pete's brother (Ritcheson's Jerry) was bred to a 3/4 Williams, 1/4 Dibo bitch (in Ritcheson's Kitty) ... to produce Tater's sire, Allen's Redman.

The Clouse blood on the bottom of tater, Clouse's Red Brandy, was an exceptionally-clean "Clouse fantasy" breeding too. There is no denying this: 68.75% Ch Staber/25% Ch Big Boy/12.5% Ch Butcher Boy ... but, in the end, Patrick's Tater only had 1 win in him.

I just think the ONLY version of these dogs, still winning and still producing MULTI-winners, today, is the Eli/Carver combination

Eli dogs (linebred on Dibo) and the Ironhead/Black Widow Carver combiniations. (Interesting that Ironhead, Carver's expressly-stated favorite dog, is a 50% Dibo/Az Pete, 35% Black Widow combo, with an extra 12.5% shot of Gr Ch Rascal, Dibo's half-brother) ... essentially 62.5% the same blood as Eli, 35% Black Widow.

These dogs are where the true super-stars are coming from ...

That is the way I see things, at any rate.

[MOSES]

No, but what difference does that make?

I just explained that MOK did.

MOK is not an exaggerator, and has bred/shown enough winners (and been around enough top shelf dogs LIKE Amboss and the others I just finished describing) to have his opinion matter to me.

And he was not the only one saying these things either.

Jack

PS: And let me also add that, aside from BBC, MOK is personal friends with Al White, Junior Bush (Crenshaw's mentor), and his uncle was Drew Favre (as in Favre's Luke), just to name a few, so he is not just some guy online with 'a cool internet avatar' (like some people). MOK is a second generation dogman with some pretty solid contacts.

Jack,

I know them all, as well as the back story. Not taking anything from MOK at all, one of my best dogs came off his yard. I know all the people that you are talking about as well as the dogs. I asked did you see the dog or dogs, your response was no.

MOK and BBC work and shows the dogs, and don’t make excuses for any of them. They aren’t “breeders” because they want to sell dogs. Point is MOK and BBC went their separate ways, and everybody landed on their feet. Plenty of things were said by both, and I’ll leave it at that. I have enough respect for them as men to leave their business between them.

PS: That just some internet guy with the "cool internet avatar", has more loses than some people have in dogs that they have matched period! He has been around long enough to know what is up from down. Don’t get it crossed up, just because I am not screaming from the mountain top doesn’t mean we don’t make noise. We just took a little break, kind of like you not selling dogs anymore.

I am not hard to find at all, like you said MOK has the contacts, feel free to make that call. I am not about all the talking! That avatar doesn’t belong to some kid that just got off the bus.

Now, how do you REALY want to carry it? Come get to know me, I promise I am kool. Win or loose I still have my day job, but we'll iron a few things out.

[Officially Retired]

Jack,
I know them all, as well as the back story. Not taking anything from MOK at all, one of my best dogs came off his yard. I know all the people that you are talking about as well as the dogs. I asked did you see the dog or dogs, your response was no.

Then why did you ask me the question, if you already knew the answer?

If you don't like MOK's opinion, I could care less.

However, if one of your own best dogs came from MOK, then ask yourself ... did one of his best dogs came from you?

MOK and BBC work and shows the dogs, and don’t make excuses for any of them. They aren’t “breeders” because they want to sell dogs. Point is MOK and BBC went their separate ways, and everybody landed on their feet. Plenty of things were said by both, and I’ll leave it at that. I have enough respect for them as men to leave their business between them.

Okay, so what?

If you know MOK and all the ones mentioned are the real deal, and don't make excuses, then sit down and STFU when I relay the honest opinion of MOK.

Did you see 45 go? If so, speak up.
If not, again, sit down and STFU.
This is my story not yours.
If you actually saw 45 go, and you actually have a relevant opinion, then you are welcome to provide an input.

However, if you just want to "make noise," because you're a fan of some dogs and are surprised to hear a man has an opinion that A particular dog would have killed them ... but you have no insight of your own to provide ... again, STFU, your opinion is irrelevant.

All I know is MOK has always been honest, and real, with me as far as dog quality goes.
I also know for a fact he was involved with all parties, and directly saw all the dogs mentioned go.
All "you" know is the same AND that he sold you one of your best dogs.

So, if that is all you know, and you didn't see 45 go, then (as I said) sit down and STFU.

Everyone whom I have *ever* talked to, who actually saw the dog go, did nothing but RAVE about Jackson's 45 ... so my best guess is you NEVER saw the dog go, to be doubting him at all

PS: That just some internet guy with the "cool internet avatar", has more loses than some people have in dogs that they have matched period! He has been around long enough to know what is up from down. Don’t get it crossed up, just because I am not screaming from the mountain top doesn’t mean we don’t make noise. We just took a little break, kind of like you not selling dogs anymore.

Okay, fair enough.

I am not hard to find at all, like you said MOK has the contacts, feel free to make that call. I am not about all the talking! That avatar doesn’t belong to some kid that just got off the bus.

OMG, more internet challenges from yet another dumbass

Buddy, here is something you need to understand: I am not "looking for you" at all ... you don't mean shit to me.

You questioned whether "I saw all the dogs," which I never claimed to have done, but I *DID* cite my source, which makes your question a waste of my fogging time.

I don't care if you got off the bus yesterday, or 10 years ago, NOTHING will change THE FACT Jackson's 45 DOA'd 2 dogs, in :17 and :19 respectively, and "the guy who saw ALL the dogs mentioned" go ... AND who "sold you one of your best dogs" ... DIRECTLY TOLD ME that 45 was at a totally different level and as close to an unbeatable dog as he has seen in all his years in dogs.

That's it.

Now, how do you REALY want to carry it? Come get to know me, I promise I am kool. Win or loose I still have my day job, but we'll iron a few things out.

Are you trying to scare me?

Buddy, my dogs have beaten FAR bigger fish than you, and I haven't bred dogs for 3 years. MOK has no more dogs.

Your "challenge" is therefore nothing but internet stupidity ... all because I relayed "an opinion" of a man you also know is legit.

Now, as far as this debate goes, I will "carry it on" with you forever .. or toss your dumb ass out on your ear ... unless you SHUT TF UP ... or ... give a first-hand account of what you SAW of 45.

If you actually saw 45 go, as well as the other dogs mentioned (Amboss, Bullett, and Psycho) ... AND if you have a legitimate differing opinion ... then you are welcome to disagree with MOK's assessment. No problemo.

However, if you didn't actually see 45, and the other dogs mentioned ... which makes all the noise you're making here a wasting my fogging time with a bunch of lip ... then go back to my STFU directive.

Because, as far as being "cool," you seem to be more of a doubter, and cheerleader, than anything I would consider cool.

MOK, on the other hand, has never been a cheerleader, and thought the world of ALL the dogs mentioned, but he was just that impressed with 45 by comparison.

Deal with it,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

This was an extremely talented, as game as they come and could flat shut it down. He won two but had one of the gamest scratches I have ever seen. Most "Bolio bred Patrick dogs" are not really know for mouth. This Kasai male consistently threw a boat load of mouth to everything he was bred to. Granted most were crosses, and the bottom half had some biters but he elevated the mouth of everything he was bred to.

You mention you don't care about pedigrees, but I posted Kasai's photograph to make (yet another) point about TRUTH in breeding.

Most members are familiar with my article The Truth on Mason's Ch Hammer. (It is recommended that any newcomer read this article first.)

Your dog, Patrick's Kasai, only serves to reinforce my article. The truth is, Cheryl Tiegs' true pedigree makes her bred almost like my Missy bitch, as Tessy was really Ch Hammer's sister from the first breeding.

If you change Kasai's pedigree to read as it should, you would see that (including Ch Bobby Jr., who is Hammer's half-brother, also off Reuben) Kasai is 25% Ch Hammer blood ... and therefore a veritable cousin to any of my Poncho/Missy/Ruby direct offspring.

These dogs are not true "Bolio dogs" ... but more Bolio/Carver dogs. This is another reason why my dogs went 5-0 against Patrick's "purebred" beauties, the Carver influence. It is the same reason Kasai produces on another level from the typical "new era" Bolio dog ... the addition of true Carver blood, through Reuben, at 3 different points in his pedigree. Patrick's Tessy is actually Reuben/Blitz (pure Carver). Bobby Jr. is also off of Reuben. Patrick linebred on Rick Rude and Black Beauty for a reason is Kasai ... he knows this and integrated them ... and it is also why these dogs were more expensive than his (fruitless) "Pinhead" type dogs.

Anyway, it may not matter to you, but IMO Kasai looks more like a Hammer dog than a typical Bolio dog ... and that is because he carries 1/4 "Hammer's siblings" in his pedigree

As someone who has run the line for nearly 3 decades, and spent thousands with Patrick, the Hammer dogs are simply tougher, gamer, scrappier dogs than the truly "pure Bolio dogs" Pat had (that didn't have Hammer). And, if you ask Pat, Cheryl Tiegs was his best bitch the last 25 years.

Jack

PS: Only the second brood bitch I ever bought, back in 1990, was a direct daughter of Cheryl Tiegs, named Rio, whom I bred to Truman. (The pedigree shows the ADBA breeding of Rio, not her true breeding.) Anyway, Rio didn't take after Tiegs at all, but one of my earliest breedings after that was to breed a daughter of Truman/Rio to Rick Rude (specifically to focus on Cheryl Tiegs to bring that out again) ... which produced (Dream Killer's Cuervo) ... who beat HOE in over an hour-twenty. So I've been pretty familiar with the Cheryl Tiegs/Hammer blood for a very long time now

[Bigfoot23]

Hey Jack if you dont mind, do you think the same results would take place if you replace the Bolio dog and used sorrells bull? I mean they both were out of Zeke or did they just produce different types of dogs? Also i'am no expert on the sorrell line but Zeke/Eli/Corvino was the base for the line right. thank you

[Officially Retired]

Hey Jack if you dont mind, do you think the same results would take place if you replace the Bolio dog and used sorrells bull? I mean they both were out of Zeke or did they just produce different types of dogs? Also i'am no expert on the sorrell line but Zeke/Eli/Corvino was the base for the line right. thank you

Koehler's Bull (aka: Sorrells' Bull) was actually out of Bolio's sister (Daisy was Zeke/Goldie) bred back to Zeke, making Bull a 3/4 Klaus' Zeke bred dog.

I never saw the dog, but I heard he was cold. Still, he was an impressive physical specimen and a 3/4 Zeke dog. When I spoke to him, Pat Patrick did not even know that it was from Klaus' (Hernandez') Ch Zeke 4xW that Bolio got his head-fighting ability, as many rated Bolio's daddy Zeke as the finest head dog of his day.

Therefore, even though he was cold, I would say that Koehler's Bull would be an excellent stud dog to use, and would likely be a high-percentage producer (as his production record reflects). In fact, there were two Grand Champions off of Bull bred to Carver/Corvino-type bitches, that were behind Sorrells' foundation dogs.

Jack

[MOSES]

Then why did you ask me the question, if you already knew the answer?

If you don't like MOK's opinion, I could care less.

However, if one of your own best dogs came from MOK, then ask yourself ... did one of his best dogs came from you?





Okay, so what?

If you know MOK and all the ones mentioned are the real deal, and don't make excuses, then sit down and STFU when I relay the honest opinion of MOK.

Did you see 45 go? If so, speak up.
If not, again, sit down and STFU.
This is my story not yours.
If you actually saw 45 go, and you actually have a relevant opinion, then you are welcome to provide an input.

However, if you just want to "make noise," because you're a fan of some dogs and are surprised to hear a man has an opinion that A particular dog would have killed them ... but you have no insight of your own to provide ... again, STFU, your opinion is irrelevant.

All I know is MOK has always been honest, and real, with me as far as dog quality goes.
I also know for a fact he was involved with all parties, and directly saw all the dogs mentioned go.
All "you" know is the same AND that he sold you one of your best dogs.

So, if that is all you know, and you didn't see 45 go, then (as I said) sit down and STFU.

Everyone whom I have *ever* talked to, who actually saw the dog go, did nothing but RAVE about Jackson's 45 ... so my best guess is you NEVER saw the dog go, to be doubting him at all





Okay, fair enough.





OMG, more internet challenges from yet another dumbass

Buddy, here is something you need to understand: I am not "looking for you" at all ... you don't mean shit to me.

You questioned whether "I saw all the dogs," which I never claimed to have done, but I *DID* cite my source, which makes your question a waste of my fogging time.

I don't care if you got off the bus yesterday, or 10 years ago, NOTHING will change THE FACT Jackson's 45 DOA'd 2 dogs, in :17 and :19 respectively, and "the guy who saw ALL the dogs mentioned" go ... AND who "sold you one of your best dogs" ... DIRECTLY TOLD ME that 45 was at a totally different level and as close to an unbeatable dog as he has seen in all his years in dogs.

That's it.





Are you trying to scare me?

Buddy, my dogs have beaten FAR bigger fish than you, and I haven't bred dogs for 3 years. MOK has no more dogs.

Your "challenge" is therefore nothing but internet stupidity ... all because I relayed "an opinion" of a man you also know is legit.

Now, as far as this debate goes, I will "carry it on" with you forever .. or toss your dumb ass out on your ear ... unless you SHUT TF UP ... or ... give a first-hand account of what you SAW of 45.

If you actually saw 45 go, as well as the other dogs mentioned (Amboss, Bullett, and Psycho) ... AND if you have a legitimate differing opinion ... then you are welcome to disagree with MOK's assessment. No problemo.

However, if you didn't actually see 45, and the other dogs mentioned ... which makes all the noise you're making here a wasting my fogging time with a bunch of lip ... then go back to my STFU directive.

Because, as far as being "cool," you seem to be more of a doubter, and cheerleader, than anything I would consider cool.

MOK, on the other hand, has never been a cheerleader, and thought the world of ALL the dogs mentioned, but he was just that impressed with 45 by comparison.

Deal with it,

Jack

Pause! Na Jack I am not a cheerleader, talker, or a scary guy at all, but you are not going to slide your slick shit this way at all.
I know MOK liked the dog; he tried to put me onto the Diamond Dude dog. Early, it just was not my thing. I have passed on a lot of good dogs, sold my share of winners and dogs that ended up at stud on a number of yards.

So to answer your directly, No. MOK did not get dogs from me, we both got dogs from BBC and most of those dogs came from Mr. Cooper and Coleman who I also know. I have no shame in admitting that at all! In fact Mr. Cooper was the one that told me about the Ruben dogs over 15 years ago and Coleman is the one that put me onto the Bullet dogs.

Understanding how things go with relationships, in the dogs. That’s not STFU, that was a question, because I didn’t see the 45 dog, hence to question.
I can appreciate a good dog, period! If the 45 dog was one of those dogs GREAT, I am not hating at all. In fact I was glad for him. I considered MOK and BBC both to be friends, I could care less what they were feeding. BBC had a lot of dogs to choose from not just Bullet dogs and I never thought they nor MOK were kennel blind.
It was a house that was divided and they had their issues, but I have never chose sides in any of that. I am sure you can understand that.
Yes this is your “story”, and more over it’s your board, so till your “story”. I am not worried about you booting me off the board, that is your prerogative, do what you think is best.

That isn’t an internet challenge Jack, it was an invitation. As for dumbass, PLEASE, Jack come on! If I have managed to stay off your radar, than it means that things are in order and I am far smarter than you think. Furthermore, I have NEVER had to rely on these dogs to pay a single bill or shed a tear about a dime I have left on the table. I might be a lot of things but I am far from a “dumbass”.

I shouldn’t “mean shit” to you, get your emotion under control. Hell I don’t know you from Adam, but it won’t stop me from saying you have bred some good dogs. What I know to be general excepted is you are a pompous and arrogant, and that’s even ok with me.
The issue comes when you want to question who or what I am. It really isn’t that hard to iron it all out as men, that’s what “how you really want to carry it” means. It can be a phone call, 10 lbs of chicken, or we can do what we know, and really break bread. Now if that was out of line, I’d say perhaps, I would agree. If you don’t know me that is one thing, perhaps you should have asked a few more questions rather than jump on the soap box. You haven’t bred dogs in three years and they have bigger fish to fry. Ok, I won’t even speak on it, LMFAO, I know better!

Understand that I’ll respect you as a man as long as that respect is reciprocated. Come at me sideways with the bullshit and I can shelf the nice guy shit also, and make personal. My heart isn’t on my sleeve, and I have had the same number for well over 20 years now.

“MOK, on the other hand, has never been a cheerleader, and thought the world of ALL the dogs mentioned, but he was just that impressed with 45 by comparison.”
I have ZERO issue with that at all, like I said MOK had some damn good dogs.