I know ch to ch has produced Ch and Gr Ch. But has there been any breedings in history when to Gr Ch where bred together and got anything noteworthy out of them? Ch, Gr Ch, Rom or POR?
I know ch to ch has produced Ch and Gr Ch. But has there been any breedings in history when to Gr Ch where bred together and got anything noteworthy out of them? Ch, Gr Ch, Rom or POR?
I assume you are talking about this breedingOriginally Posted by LEFTLANE
The simple truth is "Champion to Champion" breedings (or Grand Champion to Grand Champion breedings) make people feel "all warm and fuzzy inside," but THE FACT IS they ALMOST NEVER produce some super-spectacular dog.
Take the Gr Ch Buck x Gr Ch Queen of Hearts breeding
On paper, the Buck/Queen breeding was better than any other "Ch/Ch" breeding ever made. It involved arguably one of the greatest, most accomplished, structurally-perfect dogs in the history of the universe (Buck) being bred to arguably one of the top 3 winningest, most devastating bitches in the history of the universe (Queen) ... and what did it produce?
Aces? Nope.
Good dogs? Yep.
Sure, I think there were a few really nice dogs put out of this, including Abraham's Bull (1xW), but there were nothing better than any other really good breeding. (In other words, there wasn't some "other-wordly" dog that came out.)
The truth is, only absolute greenhorns believe "super pups" will come out of "super dogs" ... because the funny thing is, more often than not, TRULY super dogs come out of "mediocre, but solid, linebred dogs ... outcrossed or inbred just the right way."
For every "world beater" out of 2 Champions, I can show you 20 "UNIVERSE beaters" out of nothing but two decent dogs ... bred well.
Jack
I just feel that this Grip x Annie breeding has the it factor. I'm not saying there are 5 aces there. But the ped is just full of stuff that seems to click together. The jeep/rb/rascal 1/4 is a different twist but the remaining pedigree screams success when bred together. With that said, I would say the same when I look at Buck x Queen. I don't run this stuff but I feel that it is historic and I definitely give them boys props for making it happen. I believe that this breeding out does previous breedings of similar significance...hands down.
I agree, the dogs are bred somewhat similarly, but I see mostly 3/8ths RBJ + 3/8ths Bolio/Boyles-type mixes with 1/8th Crenshaw and 1/8th White breeding.
I like both breedings, but I would take a Buck/Queen pup any day over one of these ...
I agree it is historic. For sure: 2 Grand Champions and DOYs being bred together.
I also give the owners props, it is an exciting breeding, for sure.
Um, I think the pups need to 1) actually get born, 2) actually grow up, and 3) actually DO SOMETHING ... before you can even breathe a word about "out-doing" any similar breedings of the past.
As fine as the parents are, IMO neither parent has "out done" Buck, or "out done" Queen, in ANY capacity ... not in matches won, not in historical significance, nothing.
Now, whether the pups "out-do" the Buck/Queen litter, however, remains to be seen ...
Jack
Indeed and I agree with that. There is a lot that has to happen before those little boogers even sniff the track. Hopefully they are raised well and giving the proper assessment and prove to be worth the work they put into making it happen. I too would have loved one off queen. But I am not old enough to even engage in those type of conversations. I can only base what I say from what I've seen. And I feel this is a nice and well rounded and very well put together breeding. Very nice breakdown too on the cross. When done right those damn mayday/machobuck crosses are pretty potent. I look and see Mayday and Barracuda and Machobuck and i know that those type of breedings are very tough to beat. Then all the beautiful bred Andy Capp stuff top and bottom. Both parents are second to none. I may have jumped the gun on saying it out does previous breedings of similar significance. Just an exciting breeding.
So true.
Agreed. The breeding is very well put together.
I just found another image of Grip and added it to the database here. I like this photo better. He looks sleek/fast. I think Annie is a very sturdy-looking bitch, rough, tough.
That is always a nice combo: a terrier-looking dog to a bulldog-looking dog (this was the idea behind my Poncho/Coki dogs that lasted a long time ...)
I have zero doubt that some of these pups are going to be excellent ... whether they'll be 6-9xWs, and something beyond the parents, is a longshot ... but it's possible.
No doubt. Very sturdily-built. I think that is what I liked best about the Mayday/Buck type dogs is their physiques. They are always tough to beat.
Well, it is only natural to project
Can't say I have ever done a breeding in my life where I didn't "imagine what" was going to be produced.
To me, what makes the breeding exciting is BOTH the titles the dogs have won, coupled with the complementary "types" being bred together, on top of which it makes "genetic sense" to put them in the brood pen to boot.
What I think people with these pups should never forget about is breeding the offspring BACK to the parents
The best male back to his mama, and the best bitch back to the daddy ... that is where the true gold will be IMHO ...
Jack
EDIT: Imagine if they would have bred Abraham's Bull back to The Queen ... and a sister back to Buck
Just for fun, here are a couple examples where the pups off the great dogs were inbred back to one side (or the other) of their respective pedigrees:
When Grand Champion Mayday was bred back to his mother's sister (Dolly), this produced Gr Ch Haunch 5xW, Ch May May 4xW (who beat Gr Ch Chi Chi), Dragoon (1xW), and Napalm POR (who produced Gr Ch YellowMan).
When I interviewed Big Mike of Hardcore Kennels, he lamented that (although he had many fine accomplishments in the dogs) the ability to breed and show a legitimate Grand Champion had forever eluded him. Doogie failed, Bozack died first, Redman got away, etc. The irony is, Big Mike made tons of 3- and 4-way "crosses" ... but never got that elusive Grand Champion. However, he finally did get his only Grand Champion when he inbred his Felony bitch back to the son of her brother Redman, and got Gr Ch Nine Milli
The moral to this story is everyone wants to "cross" two great dogs together, but often the REAL power comes when you inbreed that cross back to one side, or the other, of that pedigree
Jack
Jack hats off to u buddy alot of guys have negative things to say about u but one thing I must say as a man who loves the dogs u have been more helpful and done so much positive stuff for all dogmen and continue to feed us positive help full information all I can do is say thanks I don't have a dog with your blood not that I wouldn't just never experienced it but this site and your book my wife bought me have increased my knowledge with the care and treatment of my dogs thank you sir happy holidays
lightningstrikes
Thanks for the props.
The truth is, I deserve a lot of the barbs I get because of my sharp tongue
However, the other truth is, I have a deep and sincere interest in these dogs, and I have always been a "doer" when it comes to making an effort to understand (and create new/better ways of understanding) these great dogs ... and how to care for as well as produce them.
Cheers & Happy Holidays
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