Combat Dogs & Children?

[lilpitgirl]

Really the dogs respond better to me then the old man me being a women on the smaller side I dont handle dogs over 40 but I can put them all in shape ! now as far as kids go I wouldnt trust any dog with a small child , a chain dog that dont mean no harm can injury a child by just trippen them up then you never know how the dogs gonna react to a small child crying in there chain space

[Officially Retired]

I think a lot of it is how they get raised. I mean "having a dog in the house" and having a dog exclusively as a house dog are two different things. I have never had a house dog I wouldnt trust around children. Even the geekd up ones seem to know that a kid is different. The dog above will go crazy when I flirt pole her, but:
My daughter can take the hide right out of her mouth, all she has to do is ask. Good luck for me or you to get that hide from her! LOL

Certain dogs do seem to have a '6th sense' with kids.

Little Bootie, for example, was ever so gentle with kids--and when I gave her away after she stopped, the people I gave her to told me she would mother their infant. Heck they couldn't even scold the child in front of Bootie (LOL), as Bootie would groan/growl her disapproval

Now Bandana, would flat-out nail you (me, or anyone) if you waived a hide in front of her. She took me down a couple of times, and I have deep scars to this day on my calves, from "accidentally walking too close" to Bandana's chain spot with a flirt pole. Nothing 'mean' about what she was doing, but when she was geeked-up for a hide, just as with Red Sonja, the whole "moving world" was fair game!

As you can tell, that dog is much older than my son, and I was quite worried about how she would act when he was born. Yet, she completely changed the day he came home from the hospital. she used to run around the house, would jump on you while you were on the couch. I mean she was a nut. now she tip toes around whenever the baby is out.
I wouldnt leave her ALONE with my son, but I dont leave my 2 pound poodle alone with him either. dogs will always be "dogs"...

That is a sweet dog then. I would trust certain dogs with tiny baby like that (Bootie, for example, who was real mellow) ... but certain dogs make me recoil in horror just thinking about them next to a baby ... who suddenly started crying :shock:

Jack

.

[bolero]

very good posts my house dog is great with my nephew and always sits by him kisses him and plays with him and he to waits for food that the kid gives him, but like all said i am always there and no matter how good he is me not being around is just not gonna happen. these dogs are smart and kids do not look or smell like another animal they have a human scent and the dogs equate that. my cousin has three young kids with one extremely dog aggressive dog but loves those kids to death. they are great with kids but as was said i would never leave any breed alone with a kid

[Pistol]

I think a lot of it is how they get raised. I mean "having a dog in the house" and having a dog exclusively as a house dog are two different things. I have never had a house dog I wouldnt trust around children. Even the geekd up ones seem to know that a kid is different. The dog above will go crazy when I flirt pole her, but:

My daughter can take the hide right out of her mouth, all she has to do is ask. Good luck for me or you to get that hide from her! LOL

As you can tell, that dog is much older than my son, and I was quite worried about how she would act when he was born. Yet, she completely changed the day he came home from the hospital. she used to run around the house, would jump on you while you were on the couch. I mean she was a nut. now she tip toes around whenever the baby is out.

I wouldnt leave her ALONE with my son, but I dont leave my 2 pound poodle alone with him either. dogs will always be "dogs"...

Maybe you have had luck with your children around bulldogs, and thats just fine, but it's never a good idea. I have owned very human friendly animals that would kill a child if given the chance. Sure it may be because I have never raised my children around my dogs, but not a lot of dogmen do. I hate these kinds of threads because I always come out making the breed look like hell with my posts. When you are a dogman who consistanly competes we all know how fast dogs come and go, so Its much harder on a child when you allow them to build a personal attachemnt with an animal knowing that animal could turn out to be a cur. I know how it feels because I was that child once. I have been in the chain spots of dogs I had no business being around, but back then dogmen were a different breed of man. If you have time to train every single dog to be around humans and children then by all means do what works for you, but when you are a private kennel you do your best to keep anyone other that you around your animals. Dogs come and go when your a dogman, so for a child to decipher which chain space is okay to run into is going to be very difficult.

I hear all you guys saying that a HA animal should be shot, but HA and attacking a child are two different things. Real bulldogs have a serious prey drive, so a small human with hair, high pitched voice, moving very fast is going to be prey. Most pitbulls that get loose in the ghetto attack children over adults, doesn't always mean they are HA. Just know that the most friendly animal on your yard gets wild and retarded when it sees the hide or flirtpole, same can go for any tyoe of unusual toy you tease them with. A child running back & forth between chain spots is something they want to get their mouths on. Aside from the actual attack, your looking at scratches, cuts, etc. How many times have you walked into a chain spot to feed or change straw and almost have to crack your dog across his head for clawing you across the belly or nipping you in the face? It stings like hell, but they didn't do it on purpose. It takes a lot for me not to haul off and thump them, because I know they are just excited to see me, so imagine what they can do to a child. When I was a kid we had a dog that would hump anything at the drop of a hat. We use to get a kick out of tossing my younger brother into that dogs chainspot to see him get burled over and mounted. We would laugh our butts off, but he would be crying because that "child friendly dog" was digging his claws into his side and pounding for glory.

IMO children should not be around bulldogs, certain things set off these animals. Every real dogman know this. It's too bad I didn't get a chance to post on the human agression thread, I would have pissed a lot of you off. I won't shoot a bulldog that is human aggressive, as long as it's a bulldog. We will leave it at that.

[Earl Tudor]

It's too bad I didn't get a chance to post on the human agression thread, I would have pissed a lot of you off. I won't shoot a bulldog that is human aggressive, as long as it's a bulldog. We will leave it at that.

I assume you wouldn't try and make it house dog around your wife and kids either, as the other poster is attempting to do. :?

[Officially Retired]

It's too bad I didn't get a chance to post on the human agression thread, I would have pissed a lot of you off. I won't shoot a bulldog that is human aggressive, as long as it's a bulldog. We will leave it at that.

I assume you wouldn't try and make it house dog around your wife and kids either, as the other poster is attempting to do. :?

Exactly, this was already addressed.

Keeping a people-mean badass dog (like Zebo) on a chain out in the country, for matching purposes, is one thing.

Trying to make a house dog out of a dog like that (or like BullySon) is something else entirely.

Jack

[Earl Tudor]

I know most people think pit bulls should have "great temperaments," I certainly do, but how does this apply with children?

I personally have never felt it is an entirely good idea to have any bulldog alone with children, no matter how seemingly-sweet the dog is, especially with very small children. The fact is, all dogs are predators, and a pit bull is nothing but a highly-specialized predator designed to dispatch smaller animals and even be able to attack and control very large animals. And, while I do believe that the breed should be (and most often is) "people friendly" ... I am not sure this always spills over to children.

From a dog's point of view, children are small, squeaky, erratic creatures compared to adults. Where a bulldog looks "up" to an adult man or woman, it looks "down" on a very small, squeaky child. I believe sometimes it is very dangerous to leave any baby or toddler alone with a bulldog, especially if the bulldog was not used to a baby in the house ... and suddenly one day a new child is brought into the house. Lots of utterly clueless new parents have discovered to their horror what can happen in these instances.

And, even in a case where a seemingly sweet dog that's "good with kids" is enjoyed by a family ... what if one day A CAT is at the window, and the dog goes apeshit after the cat, and a little boy or girl tries to grab the now-geeked-up bulldog? What happens then? :shock:

Hell, I have been bit by my own dogs in the corner a time or two, dogs that were normally friendly, but who (now that they're geeked-up and wanting to scratch back) will do "whatever it takes" to be released and go back into an opponent. Red Sonja in particular comes to mind. Here was a bitch who was as sweet as a dog could be to people. Loved children and would snuggle up to them. But, if Red Sonja ever made contact with another animal, or got geeked-up over a flirt pole or hide, "the whole moving world" became fair game: your hands, your legs, a rake, whatever was a'movin' she was a'grabbin' Red Sonja would even grab the pit wall or carpet when she was geeked-up in the corner and would have to be pried-off with a stick. Her eyes would get big and round, like she was in some kind of euphoric trance once she was "on," and I sure as hell would hate to see what she might do to a little boy or girl who tried to "play ball" with her :shock: And yet there was not a drop of "meanness" in what she was doing: she was happy as hell.

So, as an offshoot of the "human aggressive" pit bull, the man-killer, what about the normally-sweet dog that loses all ability to reason once it's "on"? I know A LOT of pit dogs are like this, sweet under every "normal" instance, and yet wildly-intense once they're "on," so is it really such a good idea to leave these dogs alone with kids? Because, again, I can think of a lot of dogs, that aren't true man-killers ... that even LOVE children under controlled conditions ... that I would still never leave alone with any child, never in a million years, because IF they get "geeked-up" ... then they are as dangerous to a child as any mankiller, without actually being a mean dog.

How do you judge a dog like that, whose natural temperament is to be sweet and calm, but whose "combat intensity" is so great, that once triggered it doesn't come with an "off switch", and so they will indiscriminately grab "whatever's moving" once they get in that zone???

Should dogs like this be culled too ... or should they be treasured (and just kept away from kids)?

Jack

.

While I agree with most of your points, I do think there is a difference in a yard dog and one that has been raised in the house in the family environment, not saying all can be raised that way though. But doesn't your preface above dissent from this one?

Talented dogs that can discriminate friend from foe are the almost invariably the best dogs IMO. So, again, it has always seemed to me that, almost invariably, the very best dogs (not common, ordinary dogs) always know the difference between when to go to work and when to have fun, and I have observed this same truth on my yard also. All of my "fight crazy" dogs have never been my very best, most intelligent, most talented dogs.

[bluebeard]

small kids should not be around bulldogs unattended( house dog or not). i had rather be safe than sorry :!:

[Officially Retired]

While I agree with most of your points, I do think there is a difference in a yard dog and one that has been raised in the house in the family environment, not saying all can be raised that way though. But doesn't your preface above dissent from this one?

I don't think so.

Being a loving dog under controlled situations is one thing. But any bulldog (that has true "contact experience" and is fully-started) can get into a "geeked-up" state under the right circumstances. This is precisely the reason I personally would never leave any combat dog alone with a child, for even if the dog normally loved the child and was trustworthy by nature, in certain special circumstances I believe that the dog could be triggered into a "geeked-up" state (a cat at the window, etc.), where its normal judgment and discrimination go out the window.

In the end, no matter how well-bred and well-socialized, we're talking about DOGS here ... predators that have been highly-specialized for combat through selective breeding.

However, Pistol mentioned "prey drive" but prey drive is NOT the same thing as gameness. I have seen dogs with incredible prey drive that were not game, and I have seen some pretty mellow old dogs (who wouldn't even chase a hide), but who (once attacked and motivated into action) proved themselves deeply game indeed.

I suppose a truly mellow, calm game dog (withOUT a high prey drive) would make for the most trustworthy dogs around children.

Jack

[Earl Tudor]

[quote=CA Jack]

While I agree with most of your points, I do think there is a difference in a yard dog and one that has been raised in the house in the family environment, not saying all can be raised that way though. But doesn't your preface above dissent from this one?

I don't think so.

Being a loving dog under controlled situations is one thing. But any bulldog (that has true "contact experience" and is fully-started) can get into a "geeked-up" state under the right circumstances. This is precisely the reason I personally would never leave any combat dog alone with a child, for even if the dog normally loved the child and was trustworthy by nature, in certain special circumstances I believe that the dog could be triggered into a "geeked-up" state (a cat at the window, etc.), where its normal judgment and discrimination go out the window.

In the end, no matter how well-bred and well-socialized, we're talking about DOGS here ... predators that have been highly-specialized for combat through selective breeding.

However, Pistol mentioned "prey drive" but prey drive is NOT the same thing as gameness. I have seen dogs with incredible prey drive that were not game, and I have seen some pretty mellow old dogs (who wouldn't even chase a hide), but who (once attacked and motivated into action) proved themselves deeply game indeed.

I suppose a truly mellow, calm game dog (withOUT a high prey drive) would make for the most trustworthy dogs around children.

Jack[/quote:a6lzj9sx]
Just for clarification, I was speaking on intelligence, the ones that know the difference from "friend from foe", would also seem to be able to decipher that distinction when it relates to a child, or getting geeked up from seeing a cat in window etc. How can a dogs like Silverback, Little D, Dirty Hammer, all be together in the house and not crank up, but couldn't be trusted around a child? I'm actually not arguing with you, just thinking you may not be giving them enough credit for being able to do the same with a child You don't have children, maybe that's why, but I and agree in the" better safe than sorry" model. I have one "game dog" (female, which I think makes a difference, maternal instincts), in the house that I truly trust with my 5, 8, and 15 year old, as well as my nieces, however, she isn't just any ol dog, and is truly one of those "most intelligent dogs" that you speak of.