defining gameness: beating a dead horse but.....

[EWO]

I go with 'a willingness to continue'. But check this out.

Disclaimer: I am not into non-game bred dogs fighting or saying a regular old mutt can be a game dog but this is what we are dealing with at our house.
Short story long to preface the topic.

When my son was 12 he wanted an English bulldog. We bit the bullet and bought one. She turned out to be quite the dog to have in the house. When my son was 16 he and his girlfriend find this 6-7 week old pup on the side of the road. They went door to door and he was not claimed. He ended up here. Fast forward some four years later. The English bulldog bled, flagged and I checked her every day for another 8-9 days. My 'heat cycle checking' Beagle gave her a once over and was not interested. Next day I turned her into the back yard. I am not sure if it were the immaculate reception, excpetion or conception. 63 days later she had 9 puppies. Raised every one.

Tanner is a long lenthgy brown brindle dog that covers the 2 acres of fenced in yard in no time. A speedster. She is typical English Bulldog. 6 of the 9 recreated the American Bulldog. They could have been easily passed off and no one would be the wiser. One looked like Jimmy Boots spit him out and the other two looked like plain old brown mutts. Thick and beefy but mutts. All of them were placed in homes except for two. One of the brown mutt dogs lives in the back yard with his Pops Tanner.

They fight on occasion. It is not the cur snapping slap happy yard dog fight. These dogs are taking hold, tucking their legs back, and getting to it. The first time my son and I separated them and it went months before it happened again. Tonight they went on each other while I was away. My wife struggled but could not separate them. They fought for the entire 55 minutes it took me to get home. They were blown hot, gasping, yet still both in hold. It is 80 degrees out.

I separated them and they still wanted to go. Being cur dogs one snapped and my son let him go. He made a 1/4 acre scratch from one side of the yard to the other back into hold.

They are now in two brood boxes. I will buy kennels for them tomorrow as placing grown dogs is basically a fat chance.

If the same story was told about two bulldogs, 55 minutes, blown hot, gasping, separated and made a straight and true scratch over a 1/4 of an acre after being apart for several minutes game is a word that would come to mind.

Never seen anything like it. I have seen tons of yard dogs snap and flail for a matter of seconds but never over a miute or so. This was 55 minutes of being in hold, in the heat and both really wanting some more.

My son who is not in the dogs at all, said maybe you should switch up to my Englsih cross dogs. Too funny.

Short story long.

EWO

[Officially Retired]

I don't believe gameness = "the will to continue" ...

I believe gameness = the will TO WIN

There are many half-hearted efforts "to continue" that I would not, in any way, call "gameness."

Gameness carries a decided intensity to the equation, a purpose, a DESIRED RESULT ... and that desired purpose/result is TO WIN (not just "to continue" getting beat up).

[S_B]

Great story Ewo...so are you going to continue with the English cross?

[EWO]

I might. In forty years of dogs, all kinds, from bulldogs, to hunting dogs, to show dogs, to working dogs to mixed up rd dogs I have never seen two other than bulldogs fight for any length of time. 60 seconds would be a drawn out affair. Usually one gets the upper hand, the other submits in a matter of seconds and then it song and dance after that. These two started fighting and my wife attempted to break them up but could not do so alone. I got the call at 4:27. I had multiple calls on the ride home saying hurry they are killing each other. My first response was to let them go they will stop in a minute. The last call was at 5:20 as I pulled on our path. They were still getting it when I got in the back yard.

I thought heat stroke was going to do them in. My son and I separated them and I drug one to the other side of the yard to the water hose. He said watch out and 'grizz' was on his way. Tanner pulling toward him. Right back at it again. Maybe a 1/4 acre sprint.

This morning both heads are swollen pretty good. They are moving a little slow. But all is well. We are off to buy a kennel and they can take turns with the run of the back yard.


I lost once with a dog that could have used a little of their heart. LOL.

Dogs? "Whooda thunk it?"

EWO

[EWO]

I can agree with the 'win' part. I guess not being able to read their minds I am not sure if they are going back to win or just going back. Maybe I come off the 'win' word some because I have seen them cross back when I knew they were not going to win or even live. But they go back.

Maybe they are going back to win and I see what they can't or don't.

EWO

I don't believe gameness = "the will to continue" ...

I believe gameness = the will TO WIN

There are many half-hearted efforts "to continue" that I would not, in any way, call "gameness."

Gameness carries a decided intensity to the equation, a purpose, a DESIRED RESULT ... and that desired purpose/result is TO WIN (not just "to continue" getting beat up).

[No Quarter Kennel]

I believe gameness has varying degrees. I don't know anyone that disagrees with this statement. When selecting dogs or truly calling a "bulldog" game, I agree with Jack's statements above.

I know guys who describe dogs all the time who are very good dogs as "Dead Game" and they are still alive. I don't agree with this. I also don't believe b/c one "goes across" it is going across to win. Seen many "go" that you could clearly see the doubt in their eyes and shortly after that, they don't "go" anymore.

If two of my dogs go at it for 55 minutes, most likely, one or both are going to die. Had either one of these had extreme pressure put on them (as in a true bulldog) and sustained damage that would do more than make them a little stiff the next day, they may have both packed it in in 60 seconds.

You have a unique situation. I believe both dogs are game.......to an extent.

[EWO]

Agreed. I have never seen two non-bulldogs go at it for any thing more than a few seconds. And true, although they were in hold when I got there, and my wife said it had been non-stop since the beginning, the damage was minimal. Maybe as expected.

The heat was the thing for me. Exhaustion and fatigue get a lot of them. These two were blown completely out, gasping, like heat stroke on the way type hot.

We just put up the kennel. I let them out together while I was putting it together and they were like peas in a pod. Just hanging out. No issues.
I'm not sure what set it off.

I would stop short of calling these dogs game, but a long scratch in the heat, after pretty much complete expenditure, part of me wants to call them the G-word.

Agree also, the operative word is Dead Game is dead, not game.

I've seen some also that went this time but did not leave me to think they would go the next time. I had a Bolio/Snooty female once that had all the makings of a match dog except for her half-hearted scratches. Never once did she scratch with any intentions. It was I'm going and I will get there when I get there. She never failed to make one but I would have not been surprised if she did not that next time.

It was just wild to see that happen. I also admit if I were reading it, and not dealing with it, it would be a tough one to swallow.

EWO

[Kendall Hoyle]

If you were to guess, what kind of dog is Tanner? my best

[EWO]

No idea. He is brown brindle. Long and lean. Fast as all get out. A bird dog build, maybe a little more athletic looking.

EWO

[loot]

Gameness to me is a dog that will continue to go over every time it's released even if it's getting his ass handed to him. The same for people JM2C