Bulldogs and Terriers

[skip11]

Do you think there is any terrier blood in the APBT? Stratton maintains that they're all bulldog with no terrier blood crossed into it. However I think there are strains that have terrier blood in them. If you look at Colby's Galtie, you can see he has some terrier in him. How about those 25l bs bulldogs? If we go by the 19th century painting, a lot of them show bigger bulldogs depicted not smaller ones.

Now look at terriers such as Patterdales and Jagd. I would argue they're as game as they come. These little dogs are like miniatures pit bulls. What are your thoughts on this?

[CYJ]

Hello Skip11. The older standard of a perfect built American Pit Bull (Terrier) not a Bulldog. Can be seen on the cover's of the My Friend and Yours dog magazine. That was published years back by Pete Sparks. Some Pit Bull dog historians believe what we call the American Pit Bull Terrier is one and same breed of dog of yesterday called a English Bulldog or Bulldogge etc.

IMHO do not agree totally with that approach. A article and pictures back in the 70's of a breeder of dogs we call today the American Bulldog. Was in one of Ralph Greenwood's ADBA Gazette magazines. This person lived in Georgia and claimed his family had these dogs from before the Civil war. Said the first original dogs were shipped from England. These original dogs were very nice looking with mixed colors of white and brindle etc. IMHO, were better built Mastiff type looking dogs without the excessive head and lips of the Mastiff. He claimed these dogs were the original English Bulldog.

If you can find some pictures of his original dogs. You can see how the show dog people's new standard. Has changed the over all looks of the original dogs to worse and not better. It appears most show type breeders of this breed of dogs today. Prefer the white ones over the mixed colored ones if the mix colored ones exist today.

We should strive to breed more to a Pit Bull Terrier standard and not to a so called Bulldog standard. I know this is hard due to the fact that gaminess and serious pulling traits come first before just looks. Still, better put together dogs toward a more Bull Terrier standard like the Pete Sparks dog, IMHO is the better type build than a more Bulldog/Mastiff type build.

Myself in the last years used a good amount of the Bully Son x Carver crosses. I got into much bigger dogs over night. Was the same for those using the Williams' Paladin x Red Boy and Jocko X Red Boy. Some of these dogs were up to seventy and eighty pounds on the chain. These bigger dogs become more what we call having a Bulldog look with the longer heavier type bodies. Some of the Bully Son dogs being one and a half dogs long and one half dog high,heavy muscled and big boned.

So today, it appears if you can keep your stock in the forty pound and smaller mid thirty pound range. You get more Bull Terrier type looking dogs with the rat tails and tight seal skin, etc. Having a more active agility weasel type movements, most terriers are noted for.

The big catch weight dogs in the upper fifties and sixties tend to be more Bulldog type looking with bigger and longer tails and sometimes a rougher coat. lacking sometimes the nice seal skin of the smaller dogs.

There is today another breed of dog called a Bully Pit or something to that effect. Seems to be a blend of the American Bulldog x American Staff and American Pit Bull. As one can see these dogs are defiantly not the same type dogs we have. LOL

This should create some good discussion. Since many believe our dogs originated from a English Bulldog x English type Terrier which well my be true. Cheers

[skip11]

Thanks for the info CYJ, definitely some stuff I've never heard before. I firmly believe that the gamebred APBTs today are not "pure" bulldog but there is terrier blood in there.

[CYJ]

If one had the time and money. Could breed a well built deep game male Patterdale Terrier to a female American Bulldog. See what sort of dogs are produced. Reasons for a male Patterdale over a female American Bulldog. Is a female Patterdale dog may not be able to carry and birth the pups.

This might could be the beginning of a new breed of varmint and catch dogs. Would be something if one showed up at one of our dog pulling contest. Whupped our breed of dogs. LOL

I had many years back seen two pretty darn game English x Pit crossed dogs in the show ring. A American Bulldog crossed to a deep game Patterdale might be a Holy Terror. LOL I can hear some of you fellows now. Saying Oh Yeah, what is the weight and bring it on my man. LOL Cheers

[CYJ]

I have read some old articles and seen 15th and 16th century tapestries. That show some dogs along with hunting hounds. That look just like our dogs today. In one of these articles, the writer felt that these particular breed of dogs. That we today call a American Pit Bull Terrier is a ancient breed maybe old as the Bloodhound and Greyhound.

On the ironic side of all this. I watched a romantic murder thriller with my wife today. The TV movie special was titled " The Making of a Lady". This movie was set in the late to early Elisabeth era on a huge land estate with the large many roomed four story house etc. What kept catching my eye was a statue of a protective brood bitch with nursing pups. This statue was in the center of the main drive way. This dog looked just like many of our dogs today. Cheers

[Black Hand]

There are few breeds today that have been kept since pre-industrial revolution era. The bloodhound and the greyhound were mentioned above. To the common person, breed type and standard for breed was not a thought until mid 1800's and was predominantly exclusive to the upperclass (like the greyhound and their coursing clubs). Common class people who mainly kept these type of working terriers and bulldogs had a type more than a breed. If it was the type to do the job then it was the type to be bred as a lot of these folks had to make due with what they had locally. The american pitbull terrier would come to fruition as these commoners would come to the new world and bring their local working type dogs with them. Who's to say what these folks had in their dogs some generations back... the folks from Ireland probably didn't have the same background as the folks from England and the Blend of the two would create the dogs we have today.

[CYJ]

Ditto Black Hand. Believe you have pretty well nailed it on the head. Many a great breed of working type dogs of the past. Has been ruined by show dog type standards to a large degree. Preferring looks over true functionality.

If any of you have the book on the original English Bull Terrier or seen some of the older breed of English Bull Terriers of India. You can quickly see the newer standard of the modern English and American bred English Bull Terrier are very dissimilar.

Two other breeds are the German Shepard and the Doberman Pincher. The original Doberman Pincher was a big boned powerful dog that ranged up to a hundred or so pounds. The original German Shepard was much larger, bigger boned and did not suffer from hip dysplasia. That is so common with the American breed of the German Shepard.

For a excellent farm and work dog. I really liked the looks of those Bulldogs that the Georgia breeder had. He did not at that time call them a American Bulldog but claimed his dogs were the original English Bulldog from England. Today called the American Bulldog. Cheers

[EWO]

Great topic. The common denominator in all lines is getting the job done. At some point it has always been crossing to and creating what works.

I had Filas for a long stretch in the 90's and late 2000's. This is a breed that once had a beautiful working dog back ground doing farm work all through South America. From herding to guarding to protecting to tracking. It was an all around worker. Two things happened that crippled this breed of dogs is the industrialization of the world and the creation of a breed standard. First, as the world industrialized a lot of these farm dogs became unemployed. Then the dogs were bred on phenotype to match a written standard. When breeding for phenotype the working ability slides on a slippery slope.

Then factor in that in America every working breed dog turned show dog has been creamed with 'bigger is better'. The Rott, the German Shephard, the Doberman, all the forms of bulldog, they all have 'size sells' lined in their lineage.

Every breed has families that show traits of 'something else in the recipe'. If the working and winning APBT were "PURE" there would be little variation in shape and size. Crossing lines within a breed can swing the size, shape and weight of a dog but the faster means is to cross breeds to do the same.

Based on the title American Pit Bull TERRIER I would say yes, there is a terrier mix way back when. Crossing dogs and lining up traits to perform a task was the purpose of breeding dogs since he became man's best friend. Breeding dogs with phenotype first is a slippery slope, breeding for genotype is a much more difficult task. Genotype breeding allows ugly dogs to do good work too.

Nailing down the when, why's and who's would be the hard part in writing down the pit bull recipe.

EWO

[EWO]

The bulldog, the bulldog variations, and the many numbers of accepted looks is the perfect breed to see how and why dogs were crossed to obtain a desired effect.

There is a weight pull guy near here. He has American Staffordshire Terriers and Blue-type dogs. Gorgeous animals that could pull hell up off its hinges if the harness and traces hold up. Incredible strength. We are walking thru his dogs and over in the corner is a really nice, well built good looking pit bull. He shows me the pedigrees and it was a 3/4 to 7/8 Mims Red Boy male. I would stand on my head for a dog like that. He says he pulling dogs after a few generations get lazy and have little drive. He used that pit for what he called 'spirit'. One shot of him and those half and half dogs were bred back to those straight pullers and the work ethic was revived. I am sure there were hard working pulling dogs with work ethic available somewhere but he had a booster shot right there at his yard.

I'm sure the fanciers of the pure Am Staffs whispered in the background about his 'mixed dogs' but when he got the trophy at the end of the pull their comments carried little weight.

At some point there has always been a guy who crossed lines within a family to get a desired effect and at the same time his counterpart who was willing to cross breeds to get to a desired effect. All out dogs originated from these two guys and their mindsets.

Great topic.

EWO

[EWO]

All of our dogs originated....typing too fast.

EWO