Pitbulls with outside trash blood in them.

[lonz]

Verry interesting none the less.

[IWK]

I see some major problems with these tests. If the baseline APBT blood they're comparing against is AmStaff blood, then of course our dogs aren't going to match. I'm not saying that crosses never happened or that our dogs are wholly pure, but I have little confidence in this test's ability to accurately find those crosses.

[Black Hand]

There are recent incidents of crossing happening. I remember someone on another board getting a pup that was half bird-dog. That was one guy that come forward. How about the ppl that didn't go online and didn't see the thread. They got the baddest bird dog alive and don't even know it imagine how many times this has taken place over the last 50 years.

[CYJ]

IWK. Sadly, the best Genetic foundational dogs our dogs are founded off of. Is residing in the old Am Staff linages. The AM Staff breeders have lost the gaminess by breeding for show and not the go. As late as the 70's there was still some good game Am Staff blood around. We all like the good Carver dogs etc. Some of Peggy Harper's Am Staff resides in some of that older stock.

A old breeder(Mr. Dailey) of the Charles Doyles-Ferris Tacoma Am Staff dogs lived in Sumter S.C. Was about a forty five mile drive from my home town. This was back in the early to mid 70's. When myself and first dog partner went to see Mr. Dailey and check out his dogs. As I was looking at them I said to Mr. Bailey, these dogs resemble some of those Maurice Carver dogs I have been seeing in my dog magazines. He laughed and said well Mrs. Peggy Harper lives right down the road from ole Maurice. Have heard they were pretty tight friends.

His dogs were bought by various dog men around that area. Many of his dogs gave very good accounts against the local S.C. APBT. One I remember was called Foots that was a 3x winner. Scotty Mc'neil bred his, later my Young's Chuck dog to Foots. I told Scotty at that time I wanted to buy maybe a male and female out of the litter. When I visited him later to look at the weaned pups. Foots and pups were long gone. Would not tell me who he sold them too. Believe they went down Georgia way with maybe bogus papers. Never found out for sure.

IMHO, the Am Staff genetic gene pool would be a excellent reference point. Since these dogs would have had far less exposer to any outside trash breeding.

[Black Hand]

That and a Colby dog.

[IWK]

IWK. Sadly, the best Genetic foundational dogs our dogs are founded off of. Is residing in the old Am Staff linages. The AM Staff breeders have lost the gaminess by breeding for show and not the go. As late as the 70's there was still some good game Am Staff blood around. We all like the good Carver dogs etc. Some of Peggy Harper's Am Staff resides in some of that older stock.

A old breeder(Mr. Dailey) of the Charles Doyles-Ferris Tacoma Am Staff dogs lived in Sumter S.C. Was about a forty five mile drive from my home town. This was back in the early to mid 70's. When myself and first dog partner went to see Mr. Dailey and check out his dogs. As I was looking at them I said to Mr. Bailey, these dogs resemble some of those Maurice Carver dogs I have been seeing in my dog magazines. He laughed and said well Mrs. Peggy Harper lives right down the road from ole Maurice. Have heard they were pretty tight friends.

His dogs were bought by various dog men around that area. Many of his dogs gave very good accounts against the local S.C. APBT. One I remember was called Foots that was a 3x winner. Scotty Mc'neil bred his, later my Young's Chuck dog to Foots. I told Scotty at that time I wanted to buy maybe a male and female out of the litter. When I visited him later to look at the weaned pups. Foots and pups were long gone. Would not tell me who he sold them too. Believe they went down Georgia way with maybe bogus papers. Never found out for sure.

IMHO, the Am Staff genetic gene pool would be a excellent reference point. Since these dogs would have had far less exposer to any outside trash breeding.

That's interesting. You think even today the AmStaffs are less likely to have been crossed than ours?

[CYJ]

Ditto IWK, a excellent and valid question. It may be so or not so for some of those newer AM Staff bloodlines. Some of these newer AM Staffs have a body build more like a English Staffordshire or a colored English Bull Terrier. A Short and Blockier build.

The Am Staffs of the 60's and into the mid 70's still looked like the older Pete Sparks Your Friend and Mine dog standard. Those Show dog type persons, keep a close eye on their dogs and the ones they plan to breed. Being they are more fanatic about a show looks standard. A bitch dog in heat would be put up and closely watched. After being bred to Sir Williams of Tuff Town. LOL

I have seen some pictures of some breeders claiming they have the older AM Staff bloodlines and not bred for show. To me the pictures showed them to be just so, so, average looking dogs. Nothing like those Doyle-Ferris Tacoma dogs.

Some of the old original English Bull Terriers. Appear to still be intact over in India. They look like the older version of those dogs. Over there they are still used on wild boar etc. and probably some vigorous dog showing. You can see some of those dogs on the You Tube.

I have read that Komosinski (may have) bred a very game English bull terrier into his Colby/Clark/Armitage dogs. He had a tough one on his yard. Take a good look at Cotton's Bullet dog's picture. Ole Bullet could have passed for a nice looking old time Am Staff back then. Cheers

[CYJ]

I would like to see that blood test done on some of those recent Black &Tan type Sorrell's dogs. Believe it is his wife or daughter still breeding that line today. I could be very wrong and will stand corrected. Some one told me in a conversation years back they also raised Rottweiler's.

[IWK]

Good stuff CYJ. I too would love to see that blood test on the Sorrell's black & tans. Ultimately, I don't really care if our dogs are pure. If outcrossing them somehow brought in some performance aspect we couldn't get within the breed, then I have no problem with it. I know a lot of folks will call blasphemy on that, but I can see it being valuable.

[Black Hand]

I wouldn't care either. I think the array of different traits and phenotypes is a huge part of my enjoyment in dogs. I'm not really a breed purist, couldn't even really tell you the Adba standard or any other club's standard. I breed dogs how I like em, not how some other guy likes them. If it's a mixture of other breeds that gives us such flexibility to go our own way and forge our own road to the perfect dog then I like it that way.