THE WORLD STAGE

[ROCK-MACHINE]

From your own experience, on a global scale how would you rank the game overall ?

1) South America = Scale + Quality (A)
2) North America = Quality (A+)
3) Eastern Europe (including Croatia, Serbia and the Baltic states) = Quality (A-)
4) East Asia = Sheer Scale + Improving Quality (B+)

I gave South America the #1 slot because of the scale they are operating at in terms of quality dogs and the amount of quality shows , they are on a scale bigger then what is seen in North America and Eastern Europe.

[EWO]

Few have global experience so a lot of the conversation will be conjecture and subjective opinion.

I would say for every great dog here in the US there is 10 great dogs in Europe. For every great dog in Asia there are 10 great dogs in the US. For every great dog in South America there are 10 in Asia.

One could swap most any country and any of the numbers above and make it a true statement.

I would say the area that "allows" things to happen would move ahead by a nose. But again, that would be subjective opinion.

Great topic.

EWO

[ROCK-MACHINE]

Good post EWO.

I really consider South America as the new mecca of the sport, they are staging large shows with world class bulldogs and camps are traveling more ''freely'' from country to country (something that is very difficult to do through out North America) to be able to compete into the best competition that's available.

North America, the U.S. in particular still have in my opinion the lb for lb best hounds overall (with exceptions of course) and the sport is more alive and well then I think the casual enthusiast realizes.
However the U.S. does not make up North America alone and there are exceptional animals to be found in many of the countries that are a part of it. Mexico alone is a prime example of this.

Eastern Europe in many cases have a very different mentality with regards to breeding and while they do have their sheer of ''home grown'' bloodlines many of their best dogs seem to come from one off breeding's from best to best with less importance being put on breeding to cultivate family lines. That said there has always been an argument to be made for best to best breeding and there are some real killers throughout Easter Europe and close surrounding areas and similar to South America they can travel more freely to ensure best face the best. Also the fact that you are seeing hounds from Eastern Europe being imported into North America show they are doing something right and are a force to be reckoned on the world stage.

Everything about the sport in East Asia is HUGE, the yards are huge, the shows are huge and the bets are huge. I believe that like anything that operates on such a large scale you are not always getting the best that could cut it on the world stage but with that being said they have had more then their sheer of exceptional dogs and for the most part thanks to the efforts of a few dedicated dogmen you are seeing the dogs vastly improved over the last decade.

I think overall it says a lot of positive things for the sport at the world stage that the dogs from different regions are so very close in quality with each country having their share of ''breakout stars'' that no one place has the monopoly on the game. As EWO said, ''one could swap most any country and any of the numbers above and make it a true statement.''

In the end being the best in your own backyard is just not enough anymore and if someone wants to be the best they have to be willing to take ALL of the risks associated with travel and face into the best, the competition is out there.

[EWO]

Agree to an extent, but then again not so much.

The greatest dogs seldom face each other. There is always a reason---timing, eras, money, distance, any number of things. Some times even fear, and even out of friendship.

One thing is for sure for every 'greatest XX weight dog to come down the pike, there are many more coming behind him. It simply works that way.

I can't speak to the globalization of bulldogs or the game in other parts of the world but I can speak to the six or so dogs I have seen imported. End of the day they are just like any other set of bulldogs, regardless of their origin, the rule has and always will be the same, some of them make it and some of them do not.

Again, most of this conversation will be based on opinion. But here goes a theory. First, I am cheap and do not like to spend a lot of money on anything, dogs included. Two, I was in the Fila Brasileiro click for some time. The fad was to import the dogs from the mother land, Brazil. What I found, for the most part, is the dogs were only good themselves, and seldom produced a second generation of good dogs and hardly ever made dogs that could make dogs (of high caliber).

Again, opinion. The top notch breeders in Brazil see Americans come running with two handfuls of money. They rate their best two dogs. The one that is the best is a keeper. The second place dog gets sold for high $$$$$. The second dog comes to the US and wins a few ribbons and then gets his nuts bred off. It is hit in miss the first generation and those dogs do not produce squat.

(Breeding show dogs is a lot harder than breeding game dogs. Even ugly game dogs are allowed their opportunity, not so much in the show world)

Parlay that to one of the reasons the other parts of the world stride to the forefront. The guy that has 200 dogs can cull correctly and a lot more effectively than the guy with 6 or 7 with John Q. Public looking over the fence into his back yard. He does not factor in production or the potential for production, or even the return on the initial investment. He can take two XX weight dogs who are excellent and find out which one is better. The one that finished a close second, or even a distant second, is still a kick ass dog.

That guy takes advantage of the person willing to pay $$$$$ to import. That dog arrives, kicks the shit out of one or two and then hangs it up. To some the couple of W's and the big pot is worth the price of admission. Then when the second tier dog is bred it becomes a slippery slope, first generation hit and miss and then from there nothing to write home about.

We can't shit all over the peddlers here in America and try to by-pass that by sending money across the pond thinking 'it's all about the dogs over there, where ever 'over there' happens to be.

A lot of babbling and I apologize for the length. Like I said I am cheap and have not had global experience in the dogs. To go further down that line I seldom vote for dog of the year because seldom have I seen the dog of the year candidates compete. I would be voting mostly on another's version, and most of the time it is biased one way or the other.

Then there is arguing the best of the best. I can only attest to what I have seen. I saw CH. Angel. In three matches and two other rolls she scratched like a rocket, as soon as she go hit she flopped to the floor, took the bottom and look like she was getting spread out like mayo. Then thirty minutes in the dog on top would flop over and within minutes it was a RIP. 2 of her 3 shows were in the box RIP. One shortly thereafter. One roll in and one roll just afterwards.

Couple that with the fact I think Molly Bee is the greatest match dog of all time. She was released 8 times and destroyed everything in front of her to the point nothing ever scratched back to her. No other dog, male or female, can make that claim.

I saw Angel. I only read and heard about Molly Bee. Who is to say that Angel would have not flopped down, and dropped the greatest match dog of all time? No one will ever know.

El Tietre is getting accolades as one of the greatest ever. Maybe Chinaman, or Zebo or Buck would have stopped him if they crossed paths after #2. Pure opinion and pure conjecture. I would venture a guess that there is no one on the planet that actually saw Zebo and also saw El Tietre.

I think all of them would have faired well regardless of where the call home.

Great topic.

Maybe I am a bit biased for the home team, I am not sure. But I am thinking the next great dog can be from anywhere, the next county over, the next country, next continent maybe even the next hemisphere.

I just do not think any one spot is in danger from another spot creating a monopoly on the good dogs.

EWO

[ROCK-MACHINE]

We will have to agree to disagree with regards to the best dogs not often facing the best dogs. I will use Team Cro as an example of a camp who will take all the many risks associated with travel and seek out the best to go into win or lose. They not only have traveled and competed within and through out South America but have competed in North America as well. The Punisher's is another example of a camp who have traveled far and wide to seek out the biggest names and best dogs they could find with Centenario as well as their other dogs.

[EWO]

How many Team Cro-s are out there? They are most definitely in the minority.

The majority of the people doing these dogs, regardless of country or continent, do not have the means to perpetuate best to best.

Again, I can only speak for me, and I can't speak globally, and with that said I can only speak for what I have seen.

The best male dog I have ever seen was Mims/DTA CH. Charlie. He won 4 times. He planted 4. But what made him special was that he turned his 12 foot chain into a flying jenny simply by petting the dog next to him. Zero bad habits. One dump away from being in great condition, and within spitting distance of world class condition. He was matched into the very best dogs we could afford. There was a really famous dog in out west that we tried but we could not post the pot it required.

I bet all I had and even some I did not because I simply did not think he could be beat.

Based on our limited resources, (in the grand scheme) we travelled as far as we could and spent as much as we could. Charlie was a dog that could have went much further than we could have taken him.

I bet there are Charlies all over the world.

But most have limitations and the Team Cros of the world are few and far between.

EWO

[ROCK-MACHINE]

I can count on one hand camps or individuals that I know of who are on par with Team Cro in terms of travel and in search of the best, so they are indeed the minority as you say but the best at the upper echelon are indeed meeting.

[EWO]

I can agree they are meeting.

I just think there are dogs just as good, if not better, that can't foot the bill for those circles. No one is coming from South America to a rural town in the south to do a dog for $1000-1500. You would be hard pressed to nail down air fare and hotels for that much.

There are indeed lanes and there are lots of times when the dog can change lanes with the best of them, but he was born into a situation where he stays in a lesser arena.

When it happens it is good for the game. I just think there are things that outweigh getting the two best together more often than not.

Again, great topic.

EWO

[ROCK-MACHINE]

I understand where you are coming from, good and valid points.

[EWO]

And the same in return.

Another 'story' to add to my point. I had a male at 41. A friend came down from the mountains of NC with the next great Mayday/Barracuda dog. 10-11 minutes in and he decided he had a great candidate for a stud dog. When it came time to show we showed up only knowing we had picked up a weight. The guy from the mountains saw him and immediately told his friend to pay the forfeit. I was pissed. Young and stupid to boot, then add in a few too many beers.

The next two dogs were going for the CH at the same weight. I watched these to go for for $$$$$$. They were good dogs. I simply thought, and then said out loud with my 41, if we drop them at 9, at 9:30 let me wipe his mouth out and then send the next one and we will all be on the way home by 10:15, 10:30 at the latest.

I was completely disrespectful and made sure to apologize at the first opportunity.

I later sold that dog and he went into the back yard of the two dogs that met for a title and $$$$$. I got a phone call that said, "you didn't lie".

He was that good.

I saw what was considered to be the best with the best and simply thought mine was better. In 30 plus years I have never seen the time when I had $$$$$$ to ride on a dog. regardless of the dog.

I'm biased and maybe sometimes a little jealous. LOL

EWO