Handwalk/Roadwork vs treadmill

[EWO]

It is all about approach and personal preference, but more importantly the individual dog itself.

I'm a carpet mill guy at heart. It is what I prefer as it is what I first learned way back when. Some years ago I talked with a guy from the 60's and 70's who put his stock in a turn table. I was intrigued enough, so I built one.

I am not the biggest fan of the really free spinning slat mills. I think they have their place and can compliment other work.

If a dog is running the mill all out and you pick that dog straight up the mill will continue to spin. So at some point the dog is keeping up with the mill rather than driving it. Again, personal opinion, if the dog were picked up the longer that free turning mill spins, the less I prefer it.

I think everyone who is passionate about working a dog has done some research, cataloged information and made changes along the way to make things better. Me, the same.

The first carpet mill I used as a piece of sanded plywood, with a heavy jute back carpet (70's shag carpet) sliding over two pieces of PVC pipe. It was a grueling work out for the dog and being it had that much resistance the 'times' were short to begin with, and then got shorter as that days work moved forward.

For the next few years I built a number of mills and changed surfaces and roller design until I ended up with the mill I currently use. I call it a carpet mill but in reality it is more in tune with a belt mill. It turns free enough where the dog can all out sprint, in his normal sprint gait, and he does not look like he is towing a boat behind him. Yet, he is driving the mill with every step. If I pick him up in the air, the mill will come to a stop, almost immediately.

I prefer this over a free turning mill.

What i would prefer more than that is if I can safely get a dog to all out spring after a ball 20-30-40 times a day. That would be ideal. Nothing artificial. He is propelling his body weight, yet he is going all out and He comes to a stop and then explodes into a sprint. My worries is that a squirrel or rabbit would happen by and the chase would be on.

Great topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq7h6nQmKoM

This is an older video. The mill is sitting on an extension cord so it has some wobble. Other than that it turns well enough for the dog to open up yet she is driving the mill with every step.

S

[Frank43]

nice

[TrailerTrash]

EWO and everyone interested , what are your thoughts on this article . (UNDERSTANDING THE CARPET MILL ) ---by hunterman ------

Let me tell you what i love about a carpet mill. It can develop a very tough dog. It's kind of hard to explain but let me use anology to try ...it's the legs that go first in the ring for a boxer and it's even more pronounced for a kick boxer. Not his wind but his legs. Anyone who has ever been in the ring definitely knows what I'm talking about. They know that your legs weaken when you dance around the ring for the duration. The legs go when you get in close, doing some serious battle - serious banging- be it human or canine.

You need serious anaerobic conditioning to go the distance and finish on strong legs. A carpet mill is a lot harder for dog to run because in order to make the rollers turn, he must pull against his own body weight, he must use his front legs more in order to make it turn. A dog is not running aerobically on a carpet mill he is in an anaerobic state. The dog will very quickly be breathing ( an over working) very hard. The dog that can run a slatmill at a very fast pace for forty minutes can be near the over train state in fifteen minutes on a carpet mill. (note ) - for this reason many people prefer a slat mill, another reason most dogmen prefer the slat mill is that the carpet mill can be dangerous for a dog if not used carefully. Many dogmen and that includes experienced dogmen, have left their dog on the carpet mill too long. Calling him on to run its too hard and the results can be a hernia and in some cases burn up kidneys. For this, almost every dogman that i know these days is of the opinion that the carpet mill is inferior to the slat mill.



A carpet mill is similar in appearance to a slat mill, except is generally all wooden in construction, there are no metal parts. The bed of the mill ( track the dog runs on ) is simply a board between two wheels with a carpet going around it for the dog to run on. This mill is not free wheeling as a slat mill because of the friction between the board and the carpet. Most people who use the carpet mill wax the board to minimize the friction. The carpet mill was very popular in the seventies, now it has taken a back seat to the far more popular slat mill.

The primary advantages of the carpet mill is now see in the fact that its quieter than a slat mill and is alot less expensive. I have always worked hard to be a good in conditioning it helps me understand what i can expect from my dog to be in good condition. Sometimes you have to have Been there yourself then you can smile inwardly when you read all about dogmen arguing what is best for conditioning. Should you use a slat or carpet mill?



Engage in weight pulling or what ever. The answer is there are different methods of conditioning and it depends on the dog and many variables. The debates are being rallied between experienced dogmen, but sometimes it helps if you have experience the area yourself, even then opinions differ any way - here is and another way of looking at it. Try conditioning yourself on one of those electric mills they have at the health clubs for six weeks. Now condition your self by hard running that includes a lot of hill running until you feel like puking,walk to recovery then run that hill until you feel like puking again. Then do it again. You will be tough. That's what a carpet mill does. I think that walking the dog long distance and lots of short time on a carpet mill should be given to establish bottom! But that should not be an ending thing. That's the only way you can build the ability to wrestle hard and recover before you receive too much damage where you can't continue.

Remember, for those who never told you, here is a break down how to use a carpet mill ----5 min on carpet mill = to 20 min on slat mill and 2-miles of road work. So ten min on carpet mill = 40 min on slat. A carpet mill should never be used no more then 15 to 20 min most. So be very careful. OK, I recommend 15 min after road work the most !!!! Very hard on legs and kidneys so when done slowly you will see great results when done carefully.

So to all my fellow dog men hope this gives you a better understanding on carpet mill and help you become a great conditioner...........enjoy from hunterman Winchester Kennels

[EWO]

It is a great article. I agree with it for the most part.

One of the biggest things I disagree with is the last part about 5 minutes on something equaling 20 minutes on something else is very misleading. All dogs are different and most mills are different. Choosing a time for a dog on a piece of equipment for a particular day in the future and being spot on would be like winning the lottery. Simply can't be done.

I always defend the carpet mill when it comes to damaging the kidneys. If a dog has healthy kidneys to start with one pretty much has to go out of his way to ruin his kidneys with equipment. If the dog is fed correctly, watered correctly and allowed to dump it is hard to hurt his kidneys. On the flip side, feed the dog shitty proteins that do not assimilate well, keep him in a dehydrated state and the work him with a dump or two in him....and a _____________ will damage his kidneys. (You can fill int he blank with what ever piece of equipment you want). A hard turn carpet mill might get there a hair quicker than a free turning slat mill, but maybe less than a hard session of flirt poling. Like everything it is the package that ends up telling the story.

I agree with the part about running on an electric mill and then running up and down the hills. It is a difference.

The biggest thing to know with any piece of equipment is to read the dog. The dog should dictate the times. Even if there is some regression here and there. Some regression coupled with some rest will result in progression if that makes sense. Maybe better explained, just because a dog ran 10 minutes today does not mean he is necessarily ready to run 12 minutes tomorrow. (just plugging in numbers). 10 minutes may be a hair much today and tomorrow at 9 minutes he is done. Totally depends on the dog and how he progresses in the keep, then factor in the variations in equipment.

If you were to make a trend of the dogs work it will make a graph that shows a steady over all increase in work duration (with a couple dips here and there) but a steadily incline toward show night. On the flips side of the chart it will show his recovery time being shortened. (again just numbers) In week one he works for 10 minutes, takes five minutes to recover, works 8 minutes, six minutes to recover, works 7 minutes, then takes 7 to recover.

The next week if he works 10 minutes, it will take 4 minutes to recover, work 7-8 minutes, five minutes to recover, work 7 minutes and take six to recover.

In my opinion, I am not concerned with how much work the dog does, but more so when the dog can do it again. When I see a marked decrease in recovery time I then add work time. When I add work the recovery time will increase, and then decrease. When I see the marked decrease in recovery time I add work again.

It builds from there. My recovery times are paramount because I load the dog during the recovery period. He is not allowed to freely recover, similar to the show.

Babbling on....it is a good article. I think things go a lot deeper and it is hard to get it all on a post or open forum. Sort of like packing 20 years of research into one paragraph, yet covering all the details, variations and potential variations and it covering all aspects of the 29 year trek.

EWO

[TrailerTrash]

BobStevens write up -

Almost every dogman that I know these days is of the opinion that a carpet mill is inferior to a slat mill. A carpet mill is similar in appearance to a slate mill except is generally all wooden in construction. There are no metal parts. The bed of the mill (track the dog runs on) is simply a board between two wheels with a carpet going around it for the dog to run on. This mill is not as "free-wheeling" as a slat mill because of the friction between the board and the carpet. Most people who use a carpet mill wax the board in order to minimize the friction. The carpet mill was very popular in my area (the southeast) in the seventies. It has since taken a back seat to the far more popular slat mill. The primary advantages of a carpet mill is now seen in the fact that it is a lot quieter than the slat mill and it is a lot less expensive.

A carpet mill is a lot harder for a dog to run because in order to make the rollers turn he must pull against his own body weight. He must use his front legs more in order to make the mill turn. When the board under the carpet is not waxed he is even closer to pulling his own body weight to make it turn. You see an example in my video "Pit Protection", as my VELVET dog runs a carpet mill. A dog is not running aerobically on a carpet mill, he is in an anaerobic state. The dog will very quickly be breathing (and working) very hard. The dog that can run a slat mill at a very fast pace for forty-five minutes can be near the over-train state in fifteen minutes on a carpet mill. For this reason, many people prefer the slate mill. Another reason most dogmen prefer the slate mill is that the carpet mill can be dangerous for a dog if not used carefully. Many a dogman - and that includes experienced dogmen, have left their dog on the carpet mill too long, calling him on to run it too hard and the result has been a hernia or in some cases burned up kidneys.

With that said, I've got to say I love a carpet mill. In my case, I like to have two treadmills, a slat mill and a carpet mill. People who use a slat mill like to have one that has a drag brake. I used to have a Red River Curley mill and got many years and mileage out of it before I sold it because of not conditioning dogs these days. My Red River Curley mill had a drag brake. I used it for very brief work to strengthen the legs – but you have to be even more careful with that drag brake or you will strain the dog.

Let me tell you what I love bout a carpet mill. Used properly, a carpet mill can develop a very, very tough dog. It is kind of hard to explain but let me use an analogy to try. It is the legs that go first in the ring for a boxer – and it is even more pronounced for a kick boxer. Not his wind, his legs. Anyone who has ever been in the ring definitely knows what I'm talking about. They know that your legs don't weaken when you dance around the ring for the duration. The legs go when you get in there close, doing some serious battle – serious banging. Be it human or canine, you need serious anaerobic conditioning to go the distance and finish on strong legs.

I have always worked hard to be in good condition. It helps me understand what I can expect from my dog. I feel like to be a good conditioner, sometimes you have to have been there yourself. Then you can just smile inwardly when you read all about dogmen arguing what is best for conditioning. Should you use a slat or carpet mill, engage in weight pulling or whatever. The answer is, there are different methods of conditioning and it depends on the dog and many variables. The debates are benerally between experienced dogmen, but sometimes it helps if you have experienced the arena yourself. Even then opinions differ. Anyway, here is another way of looking at it. Try conditioning yourself on one of those electric treadmills they have at the health clubs. Not a stair climber, a running treadmill. Do this for six weeks. Now, condition yourself by hard, hard running that include a lot of hill running. Hill running until you feel like puking, walk to recovery, then run that hill until you feel like puking again, then do it over again. You will then be tough. That is what a carpet mill does.

Another way of explaining my feeling is based on an article that appeared in the August 2000 issue of a now defunct martial arts magazine called Combat Fitness. The article was entitled Recovery Time: A Fighter's Best Friend by Terry Wilson, a freelance martial arts writer.

The writer went to Thailand to interview Bob Chaney, a trainer of Muay Thai kick boxers at his training camp in Bangkok. Bob Chaney trains world champions in this sport, which is full-contact sport that combines boxing with leg kicks and elbow and knee hits, very rough. Since the fighter must use his legs, a one-minute round is much (and I say must say "much" does not adequately describe) more demanding than just boxing. And one minute of fighting with both arms and legs is much more demanding than hitting a heavy bag for one round. You have to do it to feel it.

What is most impressive about Chaney is that at age 57 he goes non-stop for round after round with his fighters and he never gets tired. I will now paraphrase what Mr. Chany has to say about his abilities and those of his fighters who walk the talk in the ring. Listen as he speaks to us: "The key principle in winning a full-contact match is knowing how to train for maximum recover time. Recovery time is defined as the ability to recover from a full all out blow out. In other words, a warrior learns to win against another trained warrior when he fights in flurries. He goes almost all out in an attempt to take out his opponent – but when the opponent is equal in ability that doesn't happen. The experienced fighter stops and paces himself before he explodes again. If he doesn't – he loses – sometimes to an opponent with lower ability and technique, but more experienced."

Chaney said he has had fighters come to train with him that have won 20 or more karate tournaments (he means the controlled contact tournaments) and they think they are ready for full-contact. Chaney says he puts them in the ring and just waits. Invariably after the first or second round they don't want to get off the stool. They can't raise their arms let alone kick. And they always say to him – I run ten miles a day, I skip rope, I spar all the time – how can I be so wiped out in a couple two minute rounds? Now PAY ATTENTION TO THIS: Chaney says the answer is that they have trained too much on cardio workouts and fighting is anaerobic.

Chaney says he knows how these fighters feel. His abilities are not inherited. He got his endurance from training. He said he can remember being so wiped out in fights that he would take three or four shots to the head just to buy time to rest. He also said he has been in situations where he would see an opening where he knew he could land a kick and didn't because his heart was beating so rapidly he was afraid he would get cardiac arrest. And that was when he was younger.

So what is the training he does for himself and his fighters? They run hills with ten pound dumbbells in their hands and they sprint all out – very hard – recover – and repeat. When they are about to die then they hit the heavy bag all out. The bell rings – they hit the hills again. Chaney says he will be running hills with one of his new students and he'll say, "See that tree ten yard away? Hit it." They will race to the tree and back just as hard as the can. The they jog. But the student will be gasping for a full minute while Chaney is fine. But, three weeks later the student will be every bit as winded when he sprints the same run but – AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT POINT - he will get his breath back in 40 seconds. In three more weeks he will get his breath back in 20 seconds. This ability to recover is what makes a tough fighter. It is training tough and being able to recover fast that develops the winner.

I have been a member if a health club and I have run those electric treadmills myself. I can tell you that for me they don't work, don't take you anywhere near where you go when you run my mountain hills on uneven ground. Not even close.

Chaney says an experienced fighter will never fight long when he gets out of gas. If he does – he loses. Which reminds me, I remember a long time ago in the golden days of pit fighting, I would attend these dog matches – and I saw a good many famous dogmen – people who you read about now that were legends. I watched them handling their dogs and of course I kept my thoughts to myself – but I would watch them yelling at their dog, calling them on when the dog was resting, his rib cage going in and out like a bellows. And I thought, "Son let the dog fight is fight. Encourage him if he has rested too long and may start to stiffen up –but let the dog fight his fight and recover." Maybe if he ever got in the ring himself he would understand you need to pace. Maybe he has been in the ring – but never learned to pace, I've seen that in even some professional fighters. To me, a good handler would keep his face very close to the dog and in low tones from time to time let the dog hear his encouraging words – but calling the dog on when he is gasping for air, to me is wrong. I don't care how many matches he won. I think for the most part he should let the dog fight his own fight until the dog is tired and has spent too much time resting. I can recall when I boxed as a youngster and also when I competed in karate – I learned early on to pretty much ignore the calls of my coach – because I'd get worn out from trying to fight and listen both.

Moreover, I think that walking the dog long distances and lots of hard work on a fast mill should be a given – to establish bottom. But that should no be an end thing. I think that in the closing weeks of the keep I believe the dogs should have gotten lots of hard interval work on a hard to work carpet mill. That is the OLY way you can build the ability to wrestle hard – very hard – and recovery before you receive too much damage where you can't continue.

Well we don't match dogs anymore – but if you bring your dog in the swamp to wrestle a big old hog, you better give him more than aerobic endurance. You better have a tough dog that can wrestle in hard flurries, rest and recover before the hog takes him out, or you are going to lose your dog no matter how game he is. And if you enter the show ring you will have an obviously stronger, tougher, healthier dog if he is worked anaerobically with hard intervals, on top of the long distance training. A dog that is properly conditioned is going to win the show if the judge is a good one, over a dog that is minimally worked or fed down. Yes, show dogs should be conditioned.

Of course there are other factors involved in developing a fast recover. Being at your true weight is one of them. To exaggerate - if you have a big "beer belly," you will not be able to recover from huffing and puffing from a hard interval even after a good three weeks of training. You must be lean. If you have large mass muscles like a power lifter, you have more weight to carry and you will not recover as much as a person (or dog) that has lean wiry muscles. As a martial artist, I prefer the lean but very strong muscles of Bruce Lee to the large mass muscle of the body builder. Hard interval training on the other hand burns calories faster in a given amount of time than any other training. This is best done in cycles, but that's another subject.

The same magazine had an article about Mark Kerr, who at the time had nine straight victories in no-holds-barred competition. He trains seven days a week. But of those seven days, only three are cardiovascular workouts. The rest are anaerobic. Why? Because he is not running a race – he is wrestling in flurries. Endurance is a must. You have no business competing without it. But it is not enough to win in the fast lane. RECOVERY TIME – that is the key.

Bob Stevens

[BONEDADDY]

I like walking a dog that loves to pull. I have a long leash with a spring attached to it for extra resistance. I think that a slat mill should be used (sparingly) for wind sprints and other exercises (like springpole, flirtpole, swimming, etc.) should be used to keep the dog interested. You can't overwork a dog by handwalking (maybe yourself, but not the dog). A lot of people don't understand the importance of handwalking (bonding, different walking surfaces, etc.) and the impact it has on their dog. Just my opinion.
Bonedaddy

[EWO]

I'm a big fan of hand walking as well, especially the dog that pulls you down the road keeping your elbow locked and the lead banjo sting tight.

I can run with him for awhile and then lean back and let him pull the load. Somewhat interval like.

I think the combination of several training methods work best than any of them used alone. If that makes sense.

Back in the day I had a carpet mill that was a piece of sanded plywood with two pieces of PVC pipe on each end. The carpet was a heavy shag carpet and the dog had to really put out with each step, driving the mill. The carpet moved with each step but if it had a tad more resistance the dog would have to sink his claws in and pull the carpet back.

It was hard run for the dog. Where I lived there was not a lot of room to hand walk and the only slat mill I had access to sounded like a train coming thru. I used an electric mill with a cage built around it. I would speed it to a pretty good clip for the dog and when he was winded pretty good I put him on the hard turning carpet mill. When he was just about spent on the carpet mill I would put him back on the e-mill at a much slower pace so he could recover while putting forth effort.

When I moved to the country and bought some land I started using hand walking a little more, pulling some chains, etc. I got away from the e-mill but maintained the use of the carpet mill.

EWO