K. Allen's Dbl. Gr. Ch. Tornado (10xW) vs. Abraham's Gr. Ch. Queen of Hearts (8xW)

[STA8541]

Hypothetical match, obviously. Personal note, I never saw either of these great dogs. From what I've been able to gather, Tornado usually lists as bigger, around 42 lbs pit weight, while Queen of Hearts is usually shown as around 38 lbs pit weight (if weights are given). This would put Queen of Hearts going some way uphill, so what if we could magically level the weights? My understanding is this battle was talked about between both camps but never came off due to the weight discrepancy i.e. Tornado's handlers didn't want to come down in weight, nor did Queen of Hearts' handlers want to come up in weight. I sure don't blame either of them, given the quality of the opposition!

If any of this is incorrect please feel free to correct me, or add facts you know. I was curious as to which dog you think would win if they could somehow have figured out a solution to the weight difficulty. My own thoughts on this are that Tornado was too big & too good (while acknowledging how great Queen of Hearts was too; this is just the way I would wager), but it's only an opinion & mere speculation anyway as these 2 awesome warriors are long gone now. I'm intrigued by truly great dogs & wonder how things would go if they did go.

[ManiacBlack]

given same weights boy that woulda been one for history queen from what i know was a destroyer and tornado was very slick on her feet with good finish so that wioulda maybe been the best thing to ever see bitch wise in history i think tornado proving she is still the only one to win 10 as a female it dont get no better so regardless of who woulda tornado did the impossible and got dbl grch and still to this day no bitch has done it just let that sink in lol but you never know at the same time

[Coach]

There have been some bitches that have done it, just not advertised like it used to be.

It has been done and yes, no losses.

[CrazyRed]

The reason it was never done wasn't about weight, it was about two friends having conversation about a 10x and a 8x. Two dogs that did all you could ask. The part of it being offered is very much true but it was conversation. Make no mistake about it, if Ken says yes, Edward would of most definitely obliged him lol. He felt that Queen was the best ever and one of the reasons he even considered it was he had another Ch female that was 44 and they brought Queen up to 43 and she dismantled the catch time. He said Queen was even stronger and more powerful than she was at 38-39. He still said plenty he don't even understand how EZ made 38 so easily because he struggled mightily to get her to 39. In my opinion as a Queen fan I want to say she could of done anything and to be honest you just never know. Tornado had been taking some distance but mostly was in her full control but Edward believed as Queen showed, all it took was 1 bite and everything is different. Tornado is the epitome of a perfect dog, she got it done short, long or in-between. 2 of the best to ever wear a collar, I don't think many can be in that conversation. Tornado, Queen, Molly Bee, Ladystone are always placed just a notch above everyone else. Speaking of which that conversation was something that probably should of materialized, Lady stopped 2 Chs from going to see Tornado. I surely wouldn't of bet but I would of ref for free lol

[Frank43]

Why didn’t these lines produce better?

[Black Hand]

Why didn’t these lines produce better?

There is no real line built on them. Most of the queen stuff is really just her being injected into the boyles line up, bolt action crosses etc. I dont think she was really given the chance to stand on her own or really taken back to what made her... bolio boomerang.

[STA8541]

The reason it was never done wasn't about weight...Make no mistake about it, if Ken says yes, Edward would of most definitely obliged him lol.

So what weight would Edward oblige Ken at? If he was willing to come up to 42 I would've thought they'd been hooked. Unless you're implying Ken was afraid to match into Queen of Hearts even at Tornado's normal (heavier) pit weight. Which makes no sense to me lol. Just like it would make no sense to me if somebody told me "If Edward says yes, Ken would most definitely have obliged him." That looks to me like even though Ken was willing to trim Tornado down to 38 & drop her in the box with Queen of Hearts at her best weight, Edward still bailed out. Since we know that didn't come off, either, to me that would imply Edward wanted nothing to do with Tornado even at the lighter weight. So what weight would either guy be willing to settle up for? Something in the middle (which would weaken Tornado a bit while slowing & robbing air from Queen of Hearts a bit)? Unless Ken flat out balked when talking about a theoretical match at 43 lbs after Edward flat out told him his dog would be good to go at that weight, I have to think the size difference had something to do with it.

So I'm clear, I'm just trying to understand what happened, not criticizing you or either dog or either handler. I appreciate your input!

He felt that Queen was the best ever and one of the reasons he even considered it was he had another Ch female that was 44 and they brought Queen up to 43 and she dismantled the catch time. He said Queen was even stronger and more powerful than she was at 38-39.

I'd heard this too, impressive.

Tornado, Queen, Molly Bee, Ladystone are always placed just a notch above everyone else. Speaking of which that conversation was something that probably should of materialized, Lady stopped 2 Chs from going to see Tornado.

I've never heard of the Ladystone bitch, but if she's in the conversation with those 3 she musta been a good dog indeed. Now Molly Bee...there's a fella on this site, can't recall his handle, but he's forgotten more about dogs than I'll ever know & he saw Molly Bee go & described the match & said she was just unbelievable. I don't doubt it one bit lol. If I can find where he said it I'll try to paste it in here.

I surely wouldn't of bet but I would of ref for free lol

Lol. S'a shame it never came off, woulda been a classic.

[STA8541]

Why didn’t these lines produce better?

If Jack were still on here or replying like he used to, he'd probably say something along the lines of "Dogs tend to revert to the average of what's back of them." This is why you so often see average dogs (at best) coming out of "blockbuster breedings." The pups tend to fall much more closely to what the dogs behind the dogs being bred are like, rather than being clones of the superstar aces that are the sire & dam. Pretty sure this is called "filial degeneration" in genetics. A better bet would be to breed them to closely-related dogs that you felt would nick well for one reason or another. If you did that, it's possible you might get a litter or almost a litter of good game dogs, winners, even Champions. It's happened before. But...

As Black Hand points out, I don't think lines were ever really built on either of them in any kind of systematic way (which is a shame), trying to preserve the good traits in those dogs, cultivate them, & then pass them down again & again. That sort of program takes a breeder with some vision, & sadly I've found a lot of these incredible dogs have gone by the wayside when it's possible they might have been built into living, ongoing monuments of excellence in the right hands.

He also points out Queen of Hearts was never

really taken back to what made her... bolio boomerang.

This is what I was saying above about breeding these dogs to others closely-related to them, rather than just random crosses or maybe going for a "blockbuster score" with another ace that's not down from the same lines.

[Oakgrove]

CYJ is the person that posted on Molly Bee.

I cut my teeth on those old Molly Bee-Snooty and Caesar-Molly Bee dogs. Mr. James Edwards told us he drove to Florida to see Molly Bee and could not get to pit side before it was over. He said he was about ten feet away working his way to pit side. The bitch was had been hand picked to stop the great Molly Bee. She was a foul fighting bitch that would go into one's mouth.

Mr. Edward's heard, "Release the dogs". He said less than 10 seconds later he heard what sounded like the the crack of a .22 rifle. When he got to the pit he heard, "it's over". The bitch went into Molly Bee's mouth and Molly Bee broke the top half of her muzzle in half, just below the eyes.

I lean toward Molly Bee because she won 8, and none ever scratched back to her. That is destruction.

There was an older fellow that lived near here that saw Tornado an he had seen Molly Bee and Zebo and Rufus. He said Tornado was the methodical dog he had ever seen. He said the reason some of her matches lasted was she was simply breaking them down until she had a finishing spot, and from there is was quickly over. He said that a dog like that, who had all the answers, would beat the killers 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.

it is one of those fun yet useless conversations. LOL

[STA8541]

Thank you so much for all that input! It was CYJ, thank you. I remember the story, that's what I was thinking of, the rifle shot sound...brutal.

Molly Bee was an incredible destroying machine & no mistake. Her name is nearly always atop or near the top of any lists I've seen of greatest ever bitches. You said you cut your teeth on Molly Bee dogs, did she ever throw anything good? I'm gonna sound like an idiot if there's a fire-breathing monster she graced the pit with that I'm forgetting lol. I honestly don't know how she produced.

And all that recollection about Tornado was as amazing to me as Molly Bee carrying a .22 in her jaws, & it jibes with everything I've ever heard or read of Tornado. Just as complete a dog as you ever dreamed about, could do it all: short, long, in-between, game, smarts, mouth, strength, agility, air, finish...checked all the boxes, that one. The list of dogmen she went into collecting her 10 wins is as long & distinguished as I've ever seen too. Awfully impressive. About as great a fighting machine as anything ever walked on 4 legs, I imagine. Those personal anecdotes really breathe life into these old, long-gone hounds.

I'm all about fun & useless lol. Thanks again for commenting.