What happens when an ear dog faces a cropped dog. Would he still be interested that much on the same spot and are there any disadvantages for the cropped dogs when they face an ear dog. I remember something about the nerves or vessel being more exposed. Sorry for the off topic man, lol.Originally Posted by CA Jack
Indeed all video of Silver are recorded, they can be ordered at dvd but im trying to get some uploaded.
I'll take a throat dog over an ear dog. Machobuck would purposely give that ear up so he could whip around, do a roll, and come up in the throat. This was not a lucky move, it was something he did in every roll and every contest. Needless to say.. He had HUGE ears and a HUGE head , along with the ability of Roger Federer on a tennis court, that would allow him to pull this move. I 100% believe that if he had his ears cut.. it would have been a huge detriment for him and his style. If your in the throat, there is NOTHING the other dog can do. NOTHING. Like a head dog, a throat dog controls the head, but he also takes away the hog's air. This is a genetic trait. Machobuck's dad 357 was a throat dog, his mom Macha was a throat dog, Machobuck was a throat dog. He is throwing the same thing
What you are saying is true for the average ear dog ... who just grabs the ear itself and/or who stands directly in front of the other dog.
However a good ear dog doesn't just grab the ear, and he damned sure doesn't stand directly infront of a dog. Instead, he grabs the whole side of the head, from about 3" above the ear, to about 3" below it, and he absolutely clamps it all together like a vise, getting deep into the flesh of the head. When you face a dog like that, who is athletic and intelligent ... and who places himself perpendicular to the opponent ... especially if he has a HUGE, STRONG neck ... that opponent is never going to get there. I have watched it happen too many times to count.
Please understand that I make a distinction between "a dog on the ear" and a true Ear Specialist
Just think about the fact that a truly good ear dog can control a 200 lb animal with an ear hold, how easy it is for him to control something his own weight.
However, against an average dog "on the ear" I completely understand what you're getting at.
Jack
Machobuck was something out of the ordinary. With a dog of his caliber I'm not sure any style would have mattered. What I meant was in general. Most dogs aren't as good as ex Machobuck. This is purely out of my experience. In general a decent facedog will beat a decent throat dog 8 out of 10 times. Not letting him in the throat to begin with. The throat dog needs to use so much more of his energy chasing his special place. When a facedog is given his favorite spot more or less without effort. In a perfect world I like me a facedog that has the ability to finish in the throat when opportunity is given. But I agree with you. When the throat dog get in there, it's very hard to get him out. This is out of personal experience only. And i have not near as much as you have, maybe it's a pattern I have yet to discover.
Edited post: I see now that you talked specifically about ear dogs. What are your thought about a dog that goes for the muzzle?
I see what you're saying Jack, i was just asking myself whether they would miss the "lure"
That's very nice evo, actually using the ear to beat an ear dog. But after reading Jack's post that would only aply against an average ear dog>?
Did ya'll catch the link on page 2 ?
Did ya'll catch the link on page 2 ?
Yes, thnx!
I agree with Skipper in the sense that an ace throat dog like Machobuck will beat an average (or even excellent) ear dog, for the reasons you just mentioned. As a matter of fact, that is what my own Poncho lost to, was a throat dog in Ch Leonard. In hindsight,this was for 3 reasons: 1) a throat dog is a tough style for any dog to whip, and the most dangerous style for an ear dog; 2) Poncho had never faced a truly killing throat dog before so he was unschooled against a style where you can't afford to make mistakes; and 3) Poncho was 4-lb under his best weight. Normally Poncho had a huge, thick neck and even at a fat 52 lb he had clopped-onto the heads of dogs he spotted up to 7 lbs of weight and never get bit ... but on that day, and at that low weight, he just was a wet noodle and couldn't hold Leonard out.
Anyway, later on in his life though, I used Poncho to school a devastating grandson of his ... with a heavy Boyles/Eli influence ... that had killed two, in :08 and :12 respectively, in the throat ... and Poncho was 7 years old and hadn't seen a pit in longer than this dog had been alive (2 years). Anyway, after a rough 4 minutes trying to extract this extremely fast young gun out of his throat, Poncho got on his ear ... the same way he used to in his prime and at his best weight (taking the whole site of that dog's head in his mouth, and getting perpendicular to him) ... and that dog never touched Poncho again. Poncho kept that dog's head jammed into the pit wall, and just casually walked the struggling young gun around the pit. It was in the hot California summer and the killer throat dog just kept driving and wasting his energy ... was picked up running hot (and not looking too happy) in a mere :20 ... with his owner mumbling, "Damn, nobody ever did Bucky like that ..."(That same Bucky dog later went on to stop a huge, rough Alligator dog owned by Desert Kennels in :58.)
But what you're saying is true, Evo, an extremely intelligent acrobatic throat dog like Machobuck is the most dangerous dog for an ear dog (or any other dog). The outcome all depends on the speed, style, aptitude, and experience of the dogs in question. For example, my own Silverback dog is a true finisher in the throat. Maybe he is not at the level of Machobuck, but he is at a good enough level so he's never been off his feet once in 9x down (including twice spotting 4 lb of weight) and every dog his weight has had to be rescued in under :10 or be DOA. He's a pretty good dog in that respect.
However, to show the reverse, good as Silverback is at DOAing a dog in the throat, his own roughest time was against an ear dog that I didn't think much of ... for five minutes Silverback literally couldn't do shit. It was when he was young and being schooled, but still he was temporarily at that dog's mercy. Of course, when he did get out the other side picked up 4 min later with Silverback in deep and their dog shitting in the [], but had Silverback been on an ACE ear dog (like Icon), I am not sure he could deal with it. Regarding my Icon dog, the old man who was part of the camp that controlled Gr Ch Robert T (who defeated 2 Grand Champions and two 4xWs on the ear), and who was the sole owner of Ch Robert T Jr. (who stopped four 4xWs from making Gr Ch on the ear) ... personally called my little Icon dog "Baby Robert T" ... which is about the highest compliment the little dog could have got, from the man who campained these dogs himself :cool:
Anyway, I am not sure (if they were at the same weight) that Silverback could do to Icon what he did to other dogs. But, by the same token, I am not sure Icon could hold out as fast, strong, and killing a throat dog as what Silverback is either. I think a truly ace throat dog versus a truly ace ear dog is the classic "match of all matches" ... with an outcome that could go either way, depending on the dogs involved, who had the most experience facing the other style, who was faster on the draw, physically stronger, etc.
In closing (and also in agreement with Skipper again), my own "Dream Dog" was my Stormbringer dog, who was an ace ear dog with a tremendously-thick and strong neck and who was a straight killer in the throat. He would achieve absolute control of that head, with a freak body strength that was out of this world, and when he got in that throat it was Goodnight Irene
Cheers & Great Topic!
Jack
Oryt mate !
Thank you for this!
I will look at it when I get in the city, as out here in the country my service is too slow to watch streaming video.
Jack
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