looking for some working andy capp

[BREAK'EM KENNELS]

any breedind being done or any pup for sale or trade :P nice forum

[YigYang]

there is some working andy capp blood still around.
I hate commenting without anyhelp.
here is a good andy cap male that is not open to public yet but (Yes its still around)


http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=344300

[TFX]

The real question should be for any fancier looking for descendants of any dog, do you want that dog in the pedigree, or do you want the traits from that dog? Many years ago a fellow brought over a male to my place to be evaluated. The dog was sired by the great GR CH Andy Capp right back to his dam Penny Sue. He was shy, only marginally well conformed, and the rankest kind of cur one might have ever the displeasure of witnessing. Subsequently, this fellow sold the dog to some unsuspecting folks, and he now appears in a number of modern day pedigrees. One could have based a whole yard on the dog and peddled them with great success on the merits of the dog's pedigree alone. Although heavy on the Andy Capp breeding in his pedigree, unfortunately this dog had no more to do with the traits of Andy Capp than did the blue bully mongrel down the road. I visited a yard early this week to pick up a 9 year old sire of my breeding. This fellow had some dogs on his yard down from our old Homer III dog. They aren't very tight on the blood, but they sure do carry the traits of the little dog.

As for "working" Andy Capp dogs, there are 5 of these 2 year olds out there from a litter that are all outstanding individuals by every account I have heard from people on both coasts and in Mexico.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=331142

Once again, although these dogs are not "tight" on Andy Capp, I believe they carry the traits he was best known for. I saw the aftermath of one that was set down with one from this breeding, and it will cause one to marvel for certain at the talent level. Traits skip generations, and as near as I can tell based on my 20+ years of maintianing the same family of dogs and watching them evolve, I think 4 generations is about the average skip rate before traits of any ancestor are outwardly manifested or expressed again. Obviously, this is kind of a simplification and there are many more variables at work, but this has been my observation on average with both performance and physical characteristics. Personally, I paid no attention to this breeding above when it was made because the bottom side is not anything I am real crazy about. Once they matured though, I became a big fan. I firmly believe the Andy Capp traits from both sides of the pedigree cropped up in this group. Incidentally, the "cur trait" seems to crop up at the same 4-5 generation interval. Thus the importance of purification of bloodlines so that it becomes less prevalant. I don't think curs can be totally eliminated from a program, but I think one can drastically raise the average gameness of his stock by eliminating curs.

Here is another "working" breeding that I am doing next week that has an Andy Capp base. I wouldn't say these are Andy Capp dogs, but if you want something that is finer than that potlicker who was sired by Andy Capp to his mama of which I referred to above, I can guarantee most of these will grow up to please the discriminating fancier. When one doesn't change up the recipe except to keep adding more goodness, it is pretty easy to predict what the results will be.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011

[Officially Retired]

I am surprised no one has yet commented on this post by TFX.

To me, it distinctly shows the importance of individual selection in perpetuating a bloodline, rather than just following "names on a piece of paper" ...

TFX has a lot of good ideas on these dogs, and has maintained an exceptionally-game strain of dogs for many, many years ... so yall would be well advised to pay attention when he writes about breeding. In fact, I am going to post an article of his on the STICKY thread up top on the Breeding Forum (that he wrote about bloodhounds) that I included in The Pit Bull Bible.

.

[Vdk]

The real question should be for any fancier looking for descendants of any dog, do you want that dog in the pedigree, or do you want the traits from that dog? Many years ago a fellow brought over a male to my place to be evaluated. The dog was sired by the great GR CH Andy Capp right back to his dam Penny Sue. He was shy, only marginally well conformed, and the rankest kind of cur one might have ever the displeasure of witnessing. Subsequently, this fellow sold the dog to some unsuspecting folks, and he now appears in a number of modern day pedigrees. One could have based a whole yard on the dog and peddled them with great success on the merits of the dog's pedigree alone. Although heavy on the Andy Capp breeding in his pedigree, unfortunately this dog had no more to do with the traits of Andy Capp than did the blue bully mongrel down the road. I visited a yard early this week to pick up a 9 year old sire of my breeding. This fellow had some dogs on his yard down from our old Homer III dog. They aren't very tight on the blood, but they sure do carry the traits of the little dog.

As for "working" Andy Capp dogs, there are 5 of these 2 year olds out there from a litter that are all outstanding individuals by every account I have heard from people on both coasts and in Mexico.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=331142

Once again, although these dogs are not "tight" on Andy Capp, I believe they carry the traits he was best known for. I saw the aftermath of one that was set down with one from this breeding, and it will cause one to marvel for certain at the talent level. Traits skip generations, and as near as I can tell based on my 20+ years of maintianing the same family of dogs and watching them evolve, I think 4 generations is about the average skip rate before traits of any ancestor are outwardly manifested or expressed again. Obviously, this is kind of a simplification and there are many more variables at work, but this has been my observation on average with both performance and physical characteristics. Personally, I paid no attention to this breeding above when it was made because the bottom side is not anything I am real crazy about. Once they matured though, I became a big fan. I firmly believe the Andy Capp traits from both sides of the pedigree cropped up in this group. Incidentally, the "cur trait" seems to crop up at the same 4-5 generation interval. Thus the importance of purification of bloodlines so that it becomes less prevalant. I don't think curs can be totally eliminated from a program, but I think one can drastically raise the average gameness of his stock by eliminating curs.

Here is another "working" breeding that I am doing next week that has an Andy Capp base. I wouldn't say these are Andy Capp dogs, but if you want something that is finer than that potlicker who was sired by Andy Capp to his mama of which I referred to above, I can guarantee most of these will grow up to please the discriminating fancier. When one doesn't change up the recipe except to keep adding more goodness, it is pretty easy to predict what the results will be.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011

Good Read!! I wish I could understand genetics at the level you and other more experienced breeders do. Its all still new to me.

Vdk

[Icedogger]

That was a very good read and sometimes I think we all expect a dog to be game by the ped and that is so far from the truth sometimes we all get blinded by a ped and have visions of glory, I spent many of my earlier years with visions of every dog working out, damn was I naive. I spent more money on being naive and wasted alot of money just because I thought I had the best and would run my mouth without the wisedom to go with it. Years later I learned how to shut up an listen and pay attention. Not only to who was talking but what they were talking about. I do beleive a cur should not be bred no matter how good the ped is. Not saying a cur couldn't produce a good one, the sun shines on every dogs ass once in awhile .I look for traits right away in a pup, but they must mature before I make my final decision on what to do with the dog and I no for a fact not every dog is going to be worthy of breeding. Peds don't make the dog the dog makes the peds, every dog needs to make his or her own. Most people will learn the hard way as I had to and I'm still learning 22 years later after my first APBT. It's all a learning prosses. Best of luck to everybody on there choices. That was a very good post TFX sure made me think of some old days good and bad. Funny how something will bring back memories.

[k-dog]

The real question should be for any fancier looking for descendants of any dog, do you want that dog in the pedigree, or do you want the traits from that dog? Many years ago a fellow brought over a male to my place to be evaluated. The dog was sired by the great GR CH Andy Capp right back to his dam Penny Sue. He was shy, only marginally well conformed, and the rankest kind of cur one might have ever the displeasure of witnessing. Subsequently, this fellow sold the dog to some unsuspecting folks, and he now appears in a number of modern day pedigrees. One could have based a whole yard on the dog and peddled them with great success on the merits of the dog's pedigree alone. Although heavy on the Andy Capp breeding in his pedigree, unfortunately this dog had no more to do with the traits of Andy Capp than did the blue bully mongrel down the road. I visited a yard early this week to pick up a 9 year old sire of my breeding. This fellow had some dogs on his yard down from our old Homer III dog. They aren't very tight on the blood, but they sure do carry the traits of the little dog.

As for "working" Andy Capp dogs, there are 5 of these 2 year olds out there from a litter that are all outstanding individuals by every account I have heard from people on both coasts and in Mexico.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=331142

Once again, although these dogs are not "tight" on Andy Capp, I believe they carry the traits he was best known for. I saw the aftermath of one that was set down with one from this breeding, and it will cause one to marvel for certain at the talent level. Traits skip generations, and as near as I can tell based on my 20+ years of maintianing the same family of dogs and watching them evolve, I think 4 generations is about the average skip rate before traits of any ancestor are outwardly manifested or expressed again. Obviously, this is kind of a simplification and there are many more variables at work, but this has been my observation on average with both performance and physical characteristics. Personally, I paid no attention to this breeding above when it was made because the bottom side is not anything I am real crazy about. Once they matured though, I became a big fan. I firmly believe the Andy Capp traits from both sides of the pedigree cropped up in this group. Incidentally, the "cur trait" seems to crop up at the same 4-5 generation interval. Thus the importance of purification of bloodlines so that it becomes less prevalant. I don't think curs can be totally eliminated from a program, but I think one can drastically raise the average gameness of his stock by eliminating curs.

Here is another "working" breeding that I am doing next week that has an Andy Capp base. I wouldn't say these are Andy Capp dogs, but if you want something that is finer than that potlicker who was sired by Andy Capp to his mama of which I referred to above, I can guarantee most of these will grow up to please the discriminating fancier. When one doesn't change up the recipe except to keep adding more goodness, it is pretty easy to predict what the results will be.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011

very well put! it dont take a good ped to make a good dog, it take a good dog to make the ped!JMO!

[mistabud]

The real question should be for any fancier looking for descendants of any dog, do you want that dog in the pedigree, or do you want the traits from that dog? Many years ago a fellow brought over a male to my place to be evaluated. The dog was sired by the great GR CH Andy Capp right back to his dam Penny Sue. He was shy, only marginally well conformed, and the rankest kind of cur one might have ever the displeasure of witnessing. Subsequently, this fellow sold the dog to some unsuspecting folks, and he now appears in a number of modern day pedigrees. One could have based a whole yard on the dog and peddled them with great success on the merits of the dog's pedigree alone. Although heavy on the Andy Capp breeding in his pedigree, unfortunately this dog had no more to do with the traits of Andy Capp than did the blue bully mongrel down the road. I visited a yard early this week to pick up a 9 year old sire of my breeding. This fellow had some dogs on his yard down from our old Homer III dog. They aren't very tight on the blood, but they sure do carry the traits of the little dog.

As for "working" Andy Capp dogs, there are 5 of these 2 year olds out there from a litter that are all outstanding individuals by every account I have heard from people on both coasts and in Mexico.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=331142

Once again, although these dogs are not "tight" on Andy Capp, I believe they carry the traits he was best known for. I saw the aftermath of one that was set down with one from this breeding, and it will cause one to marvel for certain at the talent level. Traits skip generations, and as near as I can tell based on my 20+ years of maintianing the same family of dogs and watching them evolve, I think 4 generations is about the average skip rate before traits of any ancestor are outwardly manifested or expressed again. Obviously, this is kind of a simplification and there are many more variables at work, but this has been my observation on average with both performance and physical characteristics. Personally, I paid no attention to this breeding above when it was made because the bottom side is not anything I am real crazy about. Once they matured though, I became a big fan. I firmly believe the Andy Capp traits from both sides of the pedigree cropped up in this group. Incidentally, the "cur trait" seems to crop up at the same 4-5 generation interval. Thus the importance of purification of bloodlines so that it becomes less prevalant. I don't think curs can be totally eliminated from a program, but I think one can drastically raise the average gameness of his stock by eliminating curs.

Here is another "working" breeding that I am doing next week that has an Andy Capp base. I wouldn't say these are Andy Capp dogs, but if you want something that is finer than that potlicker who was sired by Andy Capp to his mama of which I referred to above, I can guarantee most of these will grow up to please the discriminating fancier. When one doesn't change up the recipe except to keep adding more goodness, it is pretty easy to predict what the results will be.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011

In your experience do you see any color association with the 4 generation skip? In other words, do the dogs that exhibit the same traits 4 generations later generally have similar markings or hair color?

[TFX]

Absolutely! Color and markings are simple ways to identify where certain traits are coming from out of the ancestry. The big challenge is, one has to know all of the individuals in the pedigree to be truly informed about where the genetic influence is coming from. How many people have experience with 4,5, 6+ generations of a line? I can tell you very few do, as most tend to hop bloodlines ever looking and seldom finding that one outrcrossed ace. I fell into that trap in the early years. Fortunately a couple of those crosses worked out really well, and from there we were wise enough to stop making any crosses. Believe it or not, really simple things can tell you a lot too, such as does a dog crap in one spot or all over the chain space or kennel? These are good early indicators to me on what a pup might turn out like because I know the ancestry of my dogs well enough to know where many of the traits are coming from. Jack is correct, selection, selection, selection, that is the key. If I continued breeding some of the popular paperwork that we tried in the early years I could probably sell those mutts for some good money today. Instead, we bred and showed good dogs somewhat discreetly, selling or giving away very few, and never worrying about flavor of the year bloodlines. Consequently, the dogs never have had too much wide appeal, but they are darned sure consistently good.

[relentless]

Very interesting TFX. What line do u run if u don't mine me asking?