conditioning on raw ( water in take)

[R2L]

I've got a dog who has always been on kibbles. I'm feeding my dogs raw though so i switched him too.
His previous owner says the dog drinks like a camel so he would give him 700 ML of water a day.
I don't know better then to always have unlimited water available for the dogs. So that's what im doing. I think he will lose interest soon and only starts drinking when he really needs to. My other dogs are on the same food and they rarely drink something extra, mostly after a walk on a hot day.

Now the previous owner says there is no way i can make his weight correct feeding the dog raw. To much water.....
Id say less water but i can't get anything informative out of him. His english is not so good and he says its hard to explain.
Is there anything important i should know about how the water in raw food is hold by the body compared to drinking tap water out of a bowl?

Also i get allot of comments about getting the water out a dog before a show on raw. I guess you guys wouldn't feed it if it was so difficult. Any tips you guys can give me how to handle this best the last few days.

Thanks

[Officially Retired]

IMO, this guy's understanding of the world is bass-ackwards, so I wouldn't bother worrying about getting any (mis)information out of him at all.

My own belief is exactly the opposite of his, in that it is my firm belief that you can never get to a dog's lowest weight feeding kibble ... and that only by feeding raw can you get to a true best and lowest weight.

I also believe that "removing water" from a dog's diet in order to decrease the weight of a dog is only a problem for those who feed kibble. Why? Because kibble-feeders always have dogs that are drinking 10x the water that a raw-fed dog takes in. Therefore, I am in complete agreement with you that you don't need to worry about water intake when feeding raw, precisely because raw-fed dogs hardly drink any water. (I also believe that "drying out" a dog to make weight isn't very good for the dog at all anyway.)

Jack

[OGDOGG]

Eventually he'll stop drinking water just like your other dogs. It is actually easier to find out a dogs pit weight feeding raw than kibbles because within 24 hours, he would've pissed a lot of it out already, and raw is easier to absorb and digest than kibble. Anyone feeding raw for awhile knows that if you miss a feed or two, your dog will look like its been starving for days.
I don't understand why anyone would want to dehydrate their dog before a show? I wouldnt want to be dehydrated if I was gonna step in the ring, any athlete wouldn't. I know why they do it though, so their dogs won't run hot and wont bleed as much. If you have a good keep, you won't have to dehydrate your dog cause he won't run hot. When I put one in a keep, I fill their bowl up with water along with their feed and that's all the water they'll get until the next feed. That should be more than enough water for them for 24 hours. I'd test their hydration by pulling the skin on their back, if it's slow like 2-3 seconds, I know they're dehydrated, so I add more water to their feed. Water is by far the most important source for your dog so don't hold back.

[R2L]

Thanks for the replies Jack and ogdogg, needed some support on my believes. Everybody is saying something else.... mostly ignorant i guess.

@ Ogdogg, does it mean you take away the bowl whole keep?

I don't believe people dehydrate their dogs but they do want to lose some excessive water by cutting on the water last 1 or 2 days. Same like you look how much water your dog needs. I guess you also do this because you don't want your dogs to have to much water in them, and so you dont know their exact weight?
Some people giving their dogs dexafort a day before the show, they can lose up to 500 gr in 1 day. I believe thats more like an "makeshift" if the dog is to high in weight.

[OGDOGG]

I don't leave bowls of water for the dogs period. Only if I have them on the chain then I'll leave a bowl of water for them because its the law. Even then, my dogs won't drink any anyway. The only way I can get them to drink water is when I'm feeding them. That's when Ill fill their bowl 3/4 of water plus their food in a medium size bowl. That'll keep them hydrate for 24 hours. So yes I take away their bowl of water during their keep, but when they eat, they had enough water to last them until tomorrow. I know exactly what you're talking about when you mentioned dex. That's one way of bringing in your dog to make weight but let me be the one to tell you that that's also another way for you to lose a match. When you're using dex before the show, you're dog is constantly losing moisture, if he can seal the deal in short order like around 30 minutes or less then it'll be fine. But if he can't then hell be in trouble and will look thinner and thinner as the deal goes longer. By the hour mark, he'll look like a skeleton because he is dehydrated.
I do want as much water in them as long as they're willing to drink it. And in order for them to drink the water I have to add it to their feed. You could give them as much as you want, by the 24 hour mark, all that water in their system will be gone already so you'll get their pit weight every time you weigh them after they're empty.
I do this all through their keep until 24 hrs before the show. You want them to be hydrated during the show so they could last 2-3 hours strong! Throughout your keep you don't take water away from them so why would you do it 1-2 days before the show? It don't make sense.
Every time I put one in a keep, I am not aiming at a short deal, but instead a long deal like around 2-3 hours. So in order for my dog to last that long, he has to work 4-6 hours on his working days and in order for him to work that long, he has to be hydrated.

[FrostyPaws]

I feed dogs raw during keep. I also give them 1oz per lb of weight of water in their feed. 38 lb dog gets 38oz of water. While a dog hanging out on the chain, on raw, will definitely not drink as much as a dog being fed kibble, after a hard workout, he's going to need the extra water as that is what dog's mainly lose during their work out. They lose water. That's not counting the amount of water they lose through waste, through evaporation of just breathing, etc.

OG, you're right in the sense that's why people do that, but the reality is that they're hurting their dog more than helping. When a dog is dehydrated, the first place the extra fluid comes from is the blood. So that makes the blood more viscous, which in turn, makes it harder to pump. So while the consensus thought is less bleeding, it also means less O2 to the muscles as needed, it means slower clotting times. It means less cellular transportation of wastes. Hydration is the number 1 thing a person should worry about when working a dog. If the dog isn't properly hydrated, your dog is behind the 8ball from the start.

I agree with OG. My dogs, in keep, don't have a water bowl. They have the amount of water that is dictated by their weight, and that is all they get. During the last week, I pull off the excess water so they're not wringing wet, but they are plenty hydrated to perform at their optimum level.

[Officially Retired]

I don't leave bowls of water for the dogs period. Only if I have them on the chain then I'll leave a bowl of water for them because its the law. Even then, my dogs won't drink any anyway. The only way I can get them to drink water is when I'm feeding them. That's when Ill fill their bowl 3/4 of water plus their food in a medium size bowl. That'll keep them hydrate for 24 hours. So yes I take away their bowl of water during their keep, but when they eat, they had enough water to last them until tomorrow. I know exactly what you're talking about when you mentioned dex. That's one way of bringing in your dog to make weight but let me be the one to tell you that that's also another way for you to lose a match. When you're using dex before the show, you're dog is constantly losing moisture, if he can seal the deal in short order like around 30 minutes or less then it'll be fine. But if he can't then hell be in trouble and will look thinner and thinner as the deal goes longer. By the hour mark, he'll look like a skeleton because he is dehydrated.

Well said.

I do want as much water in them as long as they're willing to drink it. And in order for them to drink the water I have to add it to their feed. You could give them as much as you want, by the 24 hour mark, all that water in their system will be gone already so you'll get their pit weight every time you weigh them after they're empty.
I do this all through their keep until 24 hrs before the show. You want them to be hydrated during the show so they could last 2-3 hours strong! Throughout your keep you don't take water away from them so why would you do it 1-2 days before the show? It don't make sense.

Agreed.

Every time I put one in a keep, I am not aiming at a short deal, but instead a long deal like around 2-3 hours. So in order for my dog to last that long, he has to work 4-6 hours on his working days and in order for him to work that long, he has to be hydrated.

I am curious why you think a dog that goes 2-3 hours needs to be worked 4-6 hours?

Boxers in training for a 12-round fight do not "practice" by sparring for 24 rounds.
Sprinters who run a 100-yd dash do not "practice" for this event by running 200-yd dashes.

I guess if you add up all the training a boxer does during the day, it adds-up to more time than when he's actually in the ring, but even then they train several times a day (morning run, then mid-afternoon workout, them maybe sparring in the evening, etc.) They don't do it all in one large "block" of time.

So with that said I am curious, when you train your dogs, do you make them train for 6 hours straight or do you train them 6 hours total, at different times of the day?

Thanks for sharing,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I feed dogs raw during keep. I also give them 1oz per lb of weight of water in their feed. 38 lb dog gets 38oz of water.

Do you include the water weight already in their raw food, or are you strictly speaking of additional water weight above and beyond that?

While a dog hanging out on the chain, on raw, will definitely not drink as much as a dog being fed kibble, after a hard workout, he's going to need the extra water as that is what dog's mainly lose during their work out. They lose water. That's not counting the amount of water they lose through waste, through evaporation of just breathing, etc.

Excellent point.

OG, you're right in the sense that's why people do that, but the reality is that they're hurting their dog more than helping. When a dog is dehydrated, the first place the extra fluid comes from is the blood. So that makes the blood more viscous, which in turn, makes it harder to pump. So while the consensus thought is less bleeding, it also means less O2 to the muscles as needed, it means slower clotting times. It means less cellular transportation of wastes. Hydration is the number 1 thing a person should worry about when working a dog. If the dog isn't properly hydrated, your dog is behind the 8ball from the start.

Absolutely.

I agree with OG. My dogs, in keep, don't have a water bowl. They have the amount of water that is dictated by their weight, and that is all they get. During the last week, I pull off the excess water so they're not wringing wet, but they are plenty hydrated to perform at their optimum level.

Again, I am curious if the amount of water "dictated by their weight" is additional water to what's already in their raw feed, or if your regimen includes this water weight?

I agree and totally understand that a worked dog is going to need more water than a dog sitting on the chain ... and I agree that the general rule of thumb for dogs and hydration is 1 ounce of water per pound/day ... but what I am not clear about is how much water a worked dog actually needs ... nor any study that has made this determination.

If a rested dog needs 1oz per lb, then I wonder what the ideal amount of water is for a worked dog, or if all anyone can do is experiment with their own individual animals.

Jack

[OGDOGG]

Well said.





Agreed.





I am curious why you think a dog that goes 2-3 hours needs to be worked 4-6 hours?

Boxers in training for a 12-round fight do not "practice" by sparring for 24 rounds.
Sprinters who run a 100-yd dash do not "practice" for this event by running 200-yd dashes.

I guess if you add up all the training a boxer does during the day, it adds-up to more time than when he's actually in the ring, but even then they train several times a day (morning run, then mid-afternoon workout, them maybe sparring in the evening, etc.) They don't do it all in one large "block" of time.

So with that said I am curious, when you train your dogs, do you make them train for 6 hours straight or do you train them 6 hours total, at different times of the day?

Thanks for sharing,

Jack

The reason why I work them up to 6 hours is to prepare them for a long match. When I say 4-6 hours of work, it doesn't mean they're sprinting on the mill for 4-6 hours.
My working dogs are pre-kept already so I'll start with a 3 mile walk which it'll take me about 45 minutes, then put the dogs on the slat for 20 minutes. He'll peak at 15 miles. On days he's not walking, he'll be on the slat for 1 hours, pacing himself and peak at 3 hours. Also on slat mill days I would take them to the park where there's a steep hill and play fetch with a kong ball for 1 hour.

[R2L]

Ah now i understand Ogdogg, you want to give them all the water they need 24 houres before weighing them. Good solution which i think everyone agrees on here.

One thing. If i remember right from raw feeding boards; adding water to raw food makes it pass through the stumic faster which will leave less time for the nutrients to be incorporated into the body. What's you guys opinion on that?

Frosty, I think 1 oz a lb is allot of water for a dog who's being fed raw. Let's say im training a 46 lb dog. You're adding 1,36 liter water to the food?

Jack, i guess you can test it with a dog being worked. adding a certain value of water for one week, pull his skin. Decrease it by 100 ml the next week, check again?


ps: one more question. Do you guys keep feeding raw the days after a hunt. Or would some cooked rice and cooked chicken a few times a day be better on their stumic.