Redboy / jocko has made more dead game dogs !

[waccamaw]

You "might be" wrong? That's a good start, Sonny

No, you were the one who made the incorrect statements I have listed above.





Again, I am not talking about "winners" of the RBJ line ... or even Grand Champions ... I am talking about the winningEST dogs IN HISTORY ... Grand Champion of Grand Champions ... and the only ONE I can think of is Barracuda. Other than that 1 dog ... I see mostly Eli/Carver dogs of some type.

Unless you can think of dogs other than Barracuda, where are they? Where are the RBJ dogs like Shady Lady (5x :37 total), Molly Bee (8xW) (who killed Jocko's sister Ch Apple), Queen of Hearts (8xW), Tornado (10xW), MelonHead (14xW), etc.

The only RBJ candidate I know of, who was a true killer that was in a real tough weight class, was Ken Allen's Gr Ch Zinc (6xW) ... but you know who he lost to? A Jeep/Rascal dog, Rebel Kennels' Gr Ch Sampson (5x BIS). Which goes back to Eli/Carver.

Again, Ch Nico (3/4 RBJ) also lost to the Eli/Carver Gr Ch IBM ... and, again, just to drive home a point, so too did the RBJ dog Ch Glock get beat by another Jeep/Rascal (Eli/Carver) dog in Gr Ch Da Beast (7xW).

So I am not seeing the RBJ dogs on the very, very, tip-top of the "kill em all" heap ... I am seeing them GET KILLED more often than not in that elite setting ... and I am seeing some type of Eli/Carver cross doing the killing





Well, I haven't witnessed any of them, but neither have you, so that doesn't change THE FACTS of what I am saying.

What I have done is I have bred dogs that have won all over the world.
I have also bred TO various strains of dogs in experimental crosses, and rolled INTO various bloodlines, for over 20 years.
I have never seen one RBJ dog, or cross, that I thought was my absolute BEST dog ... nor seen any cross or pure dog of this line GET PASSED one of my best.
Quite the opposite, in fact.

Now I have seen some REALLY GOOD RBJ crosses, as I have said (and some really rank ones too). But, as with the historical record above, the absolute BEST crosses with my line (dogs that have killed 6-9 in a row, dogs that made the cover of magazines, dogs that have killed opponents with one bite behind the head on the brain stem, in less than :18, TWICE IN A ROW) have been some kind of ELI or CHINAMAN cross in there ... or been plain-old Poncho/Coca Cola dogs without any cross.

However, to be honest, I must concede a point and say that Carl Crews made a Poncho/Coca Cola/RBJ breeding that has more wins in it AS A LITTER (18 wins, 1 DG loss) than virtually any breeding I have ever heard of. And Angel Lajara (who conditioned Mayday's sister Ch Choice) says Gr Ch Dragon had everything ... but is he an "ALL TIME GREAT" dog? No.

But it *was* one helluva litter.

So let's just admit 3 things: 1) the winningest dogs in the history of the game are not RBJ ... 2) that RBJ dogs don't make up ANYWHERE NEAR "all the good dogs" out there ... but that 3) there have been some really good, some truly great, dogs of this bloodline ... and that it is certainly competitive with anything out there.

Jack

First of all ,you just don't know what I have seen and I only say what I know for sure ! Second Carl crews never was a dog man just a crook peddler riding on tants shirt tail .and 3 rd I am not going to say I have seen a dog match in the past present or future ,only hog hunting for me guy.but I will say this only know what you see !

[Officially Retired]

First of all ,you just don't know what I have seen and I only say what I know for sure ! Second Carl crews never was a dog man just a crook peddler riding on tants shirt tail .and 3 rd I am not going to say I have seen a dog match in the past present or future ,only hog hunting for me guy.but I will say this only know what you see !

That's true. I don't know what you've seen.

Second, you again fail to stay on point. Now you're having a fit over Carl Crews. I happen to like Carl Crews.

But what I DON'T see you doing is 1) showing me the winningest/baddest dogs in the world with RBJ in their pedigrees ... or 2) admit that you were WRONG ... and that MOST of the winningEST/baddEST dogs in the world do not have RBJ in their pedigrees.

Jack

PS: In addition to what I have listed above, here is another TOP RBJ dog that lost to another Eli/Carver dog ... when Ch Noriega was defeated by Gr Ch Ajax. (I don't have Ajax' full ped, but I believe he was pretty much 100% Carver/Eli.)

[waccamaw]

Jack ,did poncho win or lose ? Remeber the female David got from you ,what was her name ?pretty dog had a lot of white on her ,he gave her back to you .

[Officially Retired]

Jack ,did poncho win or lose ? Remeber the female David got from you ,what was her name ?pretty dog had a lot of white on her ,he gave her back to you .

I am not saying Poncho was one of the baddest dogs ever. He won and he lost. But the dog he lost to was another Eli/Carver dog in Ch Leonard

Oh, and Poncho outproduced every dog you have ... as well as Ch Leonard ... 59-11 from 15 breedings.

The dog David TRADED back to me, to get that son of Bud, was Sassy. And I was very glad to get her back.

If you want to try to make this personal, I can go over a complete history of how my crosses with your stuff did ... and how other crosses and my pure stuff did by comparison.

Jack

[waccamaw]

I will give credit to the ones you had from big John the hog killer I never seen ,by the way was RBJ ,was that screamer and big John anyway that was a good litter .nice hog dogs .but anyway I am not kennel blind and do know there are other good dogs out there from all lines depends on the breeder.

[Officially Retired]

I will give credit to the ones you had from big John the hog killer I never seen ,by the way was RBJ ,was that screamer and big John anyway that was a good litter .nice hog dogs .but anyway I am not kennel blind and do know there are other good dogs out there from all lines depends on the breeder.

You seen one of the better ones ... Little Jack 2xW

[Wsk]

The Top Producers of the Top Bloodlines
Reprinted by E.L. Mullins with permission from Carl Mims & Jack Kelly from the Origional Sporting Dog Journal November-December 1986 Slight editing & Photographs included by E.L. Mullins

I keep records of the top match dogs of today. I can tell you what lines are winning the most and which dogs are winning and producing the best dogs of that bloodline. My life is raising these dogs and trying to get the best yard in the world. Every time I get the Journal, I would get out my two big boxes of pedigrees and get to work. I go through the Show News and if they have the breeding of the dogs matched, I make a pedigree on that dog and put the account of the match on the back of the pedigree and put it in the file of his owner. Then I go to his Sires' pedigree and put the account of the match on the back of his pedigree and I do the same on the back of his Dams' pedigree. This way I know how many winners this dog has produced and how many loses. It really would help me when you all send in your matches that you tell their breeding. I have been doing this since 1977. When I see other dogmen, I ask them what Stud Dog would they breed to, if they could, and you won't believe the dogs they choose - great match dogs, but sorry producers, according to their records in the Journal. One man told me about a dog that has been advertised in every Journal and other magazines, for the last few years, and I ask him WHY? He said he was a great and very famous Stud Dog, according to what has been put in the ads in the magazines and what people have wrote about him. I said, "But, what has he produced?" According to the Journal, this dog that everyone says is such a great Stud Dog, has produced one (1) dog that won in 5 hours and 33 minutes and a dog that won one and quit his second time out in 40 minutes. These are the only ones that have been put in the Journal, unless I have overlooked some. If people are claiming that he is such a great producer, why don't they send in his matches? I know he is game and I like his bloodline, but I wouldn't spend my money to breed to him. You want a dog who has already produced a good percentage of match material, so when you decide to send a gyp to breed, to get the best of a certain bloodline, pick the top producer of that bloodline - It's your money and your time and work at stake. If you are going for the "Tater" - "Faith" line, which this dog is from, I would go for Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob". He will be 10 years old in December. He has sired 7 dogs that have been matched, in the Journal, and only one of them lost, picked up in 54 minutes. I know he has sired many more winners, they just haven't been reported. He has produced two Champions and two 2x winners. His dam,, "Tuffy", was directly off of "Tater" and "Faith". The top four winning lines today are based mainly on these great dogs: Wood's "Snooty" (ROM), Patrick's "Tombstone" (ROM),* "Indian Bolio" (ROM), Crenshaw's (Irish Jerry's) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM), and Bass' "Tramp Red Boy", who could and should have been on the list of Register of Merit, but isn't A lot of the Stud Dogs or females are usually dead or not getting pups any more by the time their offspring start really winning. Here is a small list, I made up, of the top dogs from certain lines and the top producers from that line. Some of the dogs I suggest to breed to are ones from a line of winning dogs, but he or she hasn't been bred much, so couldn't have a list of winning offspring.

1.) "Tombstone" (ROM)/* "Indian Bolio" (ROM).(Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Boni Maroni", Patrick's "Blitz" (produced 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Bobby Jr."(produced 7 dogs matched and in the Journal - 7 wins --4 loses & 1 draw. Two of these dogs that lost won Gamest in Show trophies.) Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.) A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.

2.) Bass' "Red Boy" / Ch. "Yellow John" (ROM) * like: Ch. "Toro" (won 4 lost 1), S.T.P.'s GrCh. "John Boy" (won 5), Super Gnat's "Boots" (won over a Champion in 4 hours and 52 minutes.), Melvin G.'s "J.R." (won 5), S.T.P.'s "Sassy" (won 2), and GrCh. "Yellow John" (won 6). If everyone's matches were reported, Ch. "Yellow John" would be the top R.O.M. sire. "Yellow John" was sired by "Red Boy" bred back to his daughter, twice. GrCh. "Yellow" is the sire of S.T.P.'s Ch. "Rodney". If you could breed to "Yellow", he'd be a good prospect. If you can breed to a good, direct son of "Red Boy", do so.

3.) bred a lot, so there are a lot of Champions and winners. Some of the greats by her are: Ch. "Jeep" (ROM), GrCh. "Snake", Ch. "Holly", GrCh."Weehut" and Ch. "Charlie". "Jeep" has been bred a lot and has sired 5 Champions. Dog off of "Jeep" has this recorded in the Journal. 33 wins, 12 loses -- 7 quit and 1 draw. If anyone plans to get something directly off "Jeep", better hurry up, he's not getting any younger. Rebel Kennels' Ch. "Rebel" has produced pretty good, 11 wins and 2 loses. After "Jeep" is gone, "Turtle" would be the best prospect for a sire. GrCh. "Snake" has sired only one 4x winner and 2 dogs that quit. He has produced poorly.

4.) "Snooty" (ROM) *"Snooty"s record had been reported, in the Journal, he would have 8 R.O. M. points, tied with "Yellow John", if all his were reported. "Snooty" a 2x winner sired: Ch. "Thor" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Sugar" (won 4 - now in Holland), Ch. "Red Lady" (won 3, lost one-quit), "Spike" (won 5), "Red Danger" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Napoleon" (won 3), and "Snooty Son" (won 3 or 4, none of his were reported). There aren’t many direct sons or daughters off "Snooty" left to breed to. The dog registered as Hargrove's"Spanky" (ROM) produced 3 Champions, but he is now deceased. Some good prospects would be "Snooty Son" - owned by Mark Bristol. His dam is 1/2 Tudor. Mims' "Mose"- game tested, bred back to his daughter"Moxie" a 2x winner, dead game. "Mose" is the last of his litter and is now in California.* His brother sired 2 Champions before his death."Spike", a 5 time winner has only produced two 1x winners, in the These are the top producing lines of today. It's your choice. Most of the top sires are gone before you can see who are the top producers. You just have to bred to one who has a good percentage of game littermates and is a good one himself. Breed to a line with a good percentage of wins.

TIP!! GrCh. "Lucky Strike". This line use to be one of the tops years ago, but has gone down in their percentage of wins since the great breeder Bob Hemphill died.* GrCh. "Lucky Strike" is a great dog, but I know the win - loss record on his line today and they hardly ever win, in the Journal. You'll take a chance of getting any match material if you breed to him. If you have a good line of stock, but need an outcross, study the record of that dog you want to breed to, before you do it. Don't breed to him just because he's the greatest match dog in the country, but because he comes from a line of a good percentage of great dogs.

Here's an old article that in a way is fitting for this interesting thread.

[Black Hand]

Most of the redboy n rbj dogs I've had and seen just weren't very smart. That's my only knock on them though. Although there was a son of southern kennels bambam that had it all. But I believe there was some heavy bolio on the bottom side.

[waccamaw]

Most of the redboy n rbj dogs I've had and seen just weren't very smart. That's my only knock on them though. Although there was a son of southern kennels bambam that had it all. But I believe there was some heavy bolio on the bottom side.

That is the difference in the real old school red boy / jocko (waccamaw dogs)! And the watered down version. Others try to push .

[swampdawg]

I think u guys r comparing apples to oranges here.I think every line is an independant bloodline.I wouldnt compare a Burns bred rbj to a Wacc.bred rbj dog,both very differnt animals and I think I can say the same about bolio dogs,Jeep dogs,Eli dogs and the list can keep going on an on.Feed what makes you happy and youll enjoy life alot more.I saw a bumpet sticker a few wks back that said"Dogs make mankind".They sure keep me kind.