Conditioning only on a Raw feed diet or a Kibble with Supplement added diet?

[Milehighmisfit]

Frosty,
Good question, but most of there calories are coming from kibble and have been using the raw food to round things out I guess. Basically they always get kibble, rf-1 and oil. Once or twice a week they will get an egg lightly boiled, once or twice a week they will get some chicken (sometimes grocery store bought chicken, or whole ground chicken from hare-today.com). Maybe eventually I will switch over entirely. I have done the full raw thing before and it seemed to work well,definitely smaller poops that was for sure.

[BSK]

I'm getting ready to start shaping one in a couple of days. She is currently eating Orien 6 Fish. But I'm going to wean her into raw to do a raw keep. I will be using chicken backs, beef fat, RF-1,Lixotinic, Bee Pollen,mustard greens & kales,yogurt,joint flex & a muscle fortifier. My questions are : since I have the RF-1 & Lixotinic are the greens & muscle fortifier & joint flex needed? This is my 1st time using RF-1. ALL HELP WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!

[CYJ]

Ditto BSK. I would reduce your dog in the prekeep with the amount of kibble feed, dog has been eating for good health maintenance. In what ever part of the country you live in has a factor also. Assuming this dog is active and not being overfed. In other words not hog fat on the chain. If dog is hog fat can take up to twelve weeks to slowly work to best show weight.

Now here is where I differ IMHO on feeding in the prekeep. Assuming again you have slowly prekeeped this dog before and know it's best show weight. We liked to work a dog depending on the size of the dog. To work the dog at 1/2 to 1 pound below it's over all best show weight. You will see just slightly the top of the hip bones showing and about all ribs showing. You are not into the serious hard work yet, so do mostly easy aerobic trotting and hand walking. Reason for this is to insure all the gut fat is worked out of the dog. This is extra important if you are showing your dog in hot weather. There can be no or very little gut fat in a dog being shown in hot weather.

One other thing on a hot weather show dog. The dog should hopefully be big boned and rangy built with lots of gameness. Heat and lack of air will stop a show dog quicker than anything else. Not a bad idea to breed dogs for the bigger bone structure and rangy built. These type built dogs are hard to whip in any dog show season. LOL

Back on subject. Any of those proven supplements while also putting the dog through it's worming schedule. Add them at a third amount in first half of pre keep. Then full recommended dosage (only) in last half of pre keep. The greens should be canned unsalted greens. Add about three fingers and a thumb full at a time. The greens give the dog enough roughage to keep the bowels regulated and some vitamin K benefits.

You only add the Chicken meat to the keep when you start the serious work. We started out with one chicken back and chicken neck with about a cup of the broth. The kibble amount used in the prekeep will remain the same through the whole keep. Dog losing weight,add another back and neck. Most of our dogs were little dogs,never went past two necks and backs. Make sure to use the skin and all the fat. Do not remove.

The kibble you are using. If this dog show is in the heat. If this same kibble comes in a lower protein and fat content use that kibble formula in hot weather. The higher protein/fat formula can be used in the cold winter months. The higher protein count can create heat in the dog's body. Is why sled dog men use a lot of high protein/high fat source from Salmon fish etc. So lower protein/fat kibble formulas for hot weather dog shows. Long as the kibble has a good quality chicken based feed formula. The dog will get all the needed natural bone meal/meat protein and easier digested fat from the chicken necks/chicken backs.

Some like to feed two solid meals a day. IMHO I disagree due to one can not accurately know the dogs true weight on any given day. Nothing wrong with some good quality fluids 12 hours from the main PM work out. This should be done in the pre keep and the main keep. Start out with eight ounces and check the skin everyday to see how hydrated your dog is. IMHO any AM work should be just hand walking light trotting. The PM is for the serious work.

Sorry if this was as some say. To much information. LOL I probably am preaching to the choir. LOL You and many of these other dog men have learned better and newer ways to skin that cat. I am coming from a time line of the 70's and the 80's. Cheers

[brokeback]

Great post as always, CYJ.

[BSK]

Thanks Sir. But my questions were : since I'm using RF-1 do I need I still need the horse muscle fortifier & MSM & since I'm using Lixotinic do I still need the greens? She is eating Orien 6 fish but Im going to wean her to all raw (chicken backs & beef fat).

[CYJ]

BSK you will need the greens to help keep enough bulk in the dogs diet to move the stool through the bowels to avoid any constipation. No matter what type feed keep one uses. There has to be something in the total feed mixture to add bulk for proper fluid absorption and stool elimination. Greens added will not hurt any sort of feed keep being used.

Greens will be your best over all choice for natural fiber. One of the reasons the older feed keeps kept some kibble was to insure good bowel movement and allowing the dog to feel like it has eaten a full meal.

Eliminating the kibble in a hot weather keep is not a bad idea, should help the dog maintain a leaner weight with no access fat in the gut etc. areas. If what you plan to do and have already seen excellent results in another show or prekeep. Go for it. Long as your dog stays bright eyed/glossy skin/blood red gums/no dehydration/kicking up the dirt after a no straining solid bowel movement. You are good to go.

Will have to look up the info on that Lixotinic product. That is a new product I have not read about. There is nothing wrong with good quality supplement products used in moderation. But still no substitute for good solid food. Just like any hard working human. That dog has got to feel like it has eaten a solid meal of life sustaining food. If not, will become ravenous and even start eating it's own stool etc. Right in front of your eyes. LOL

If I am not giving BSK the exact right answers he is asking. Please, the dog persons with more newer keep knowlege, chime in and help this fellow compadre out. I always believed any well intentioned dog man should be given a fair shake in the game. Helps the best over dogs to win and used for future breeding to improve the sport. Cheers

[S_B]

I always believed any well intentioned dog man should be given a fair shake in the game. Helps the best over dogs to win and used for future breeding to improve the sport. Cheers

CYJ,

I've never once thought you were steering anyone wrong in your advice. You may think your information is "outdated" I see it as you must have been before your time with feed and vitamin knowledge.

S_B

[CYJ]

Thank you very much S_B. I learned a lot from that transplanted Texas Marine that I met up at Mr. Teal's place. He was way ahead of his times. LOL Over time though,I found out one can not just blindly use another person's work keep/feed keep. IMHO there are too many variables in different peoples life styles and climate locations. One has to work out a work keep/feed keep around their own work schedules/ life styles and the basic climate area they live in. Very possible a feed/work keep used with success in S.C. may need to be changed or adjusted say in a dry climate like in Texas/Mountainous area where air is thinner or a extra hot humid place like Louisiana.

Why it is much harder to travel over 500 miles to another dog persons back yard and win. When Lonzo Pratt beat a winning dog of Leo Kinards with his Mike dog. Lonzo had a friend airplane pilot and they flew in close to the dog show arena around three or so weeks in advance. Finish peaking the Mike dog right up under their noses. This allowed his Mike dog to get more use to the climate change. Pratt's Mike was a fresh butt kicking dog when the command to release your dogs was given. Rest is dog history on that event.

In my part of the woods a extra large round table under a weather proof shed was much more reliable than a swinging jenny. Even if I did like and prefer a Jenny. I had one 80 feet long with a excellent running track. The dogs that would run it,(most would not) did not like the freezing blowing wind or half froze water in the track or the scorching sun/ heat plus high humidity. No more than I did. LOL Never had a first time dog or even puppies that did not like running a big round table. Was like a hamster in a squirrel cage event. LOL Overtime going around to various known dog person's yards. Would usually see a big round table that was at least used as a bad weather back up along with a free spinning tread mill or carpet mill. Note James Crenshaw had that extra wide well built (probably German made) treadmill up on his back yard porch.

Said all this to say this. Try to learn how to work a dog in the best time efficient way one can afford. Or will end up working themselves to a frazzle. Will not be long before the person or the dog will be wondering who is working who. LOL

Need to get back on subject. Cheers

[CYJ]

Hello BSK. I looked up some of those products. I read the review on the RF-1 product on Tom's Face book site. For as any added supplementation. The RF-1 should cover everything. Adding another liquid blood builder formula that is shown in the Lixotinic product. Could throw everything off in your vitamin-mineral packet that is in Tom's RF-1 product. Could cause some of those vitamins-minerals to become toxic and strain the dog's liver and kidneys.

Natural MSM is the stinking natural sulphur we smell after breaking open boiling eggs. The MSM sold in the health food stores is fine. I take a heaping teaspoon of MSM with water every day and a one ounce shot of straight lemon juice/one ounce shot of Noni juice. The MSM only in in the A.M.

Putting MSM in powered form in any type dog food could make the feed very undesirable to eat. MSM in it's pure powered form is extremely bitter tasting. I just throw it to the back of my tongue and shoot it down with some water. Can be very nauseating if allowed to dissolve in the mouth. Unless you have already tried it on a dog, not sure how a dog would react to MSM even in capsule form. I know the Now Food company sells a Glucosamine/Chondrotin/MSM product in a hard jell capsule.

Dogs respond to to Glucosamine/Chondrotin/Creatine much better than humans do. Reason I guess is the lesser body weight to human dosage and much stronger digestive acids. I believe the RF-I already has the right amount of top quality Creatine/Glucosame/Chondrotin in it. One other thing about pure MSM. Best taken in the A.M as it can rev up the nervous and energy system. Taken to late in the P.M. can keep one awake at night. Cheers

[brokeback]

Thanks for taking the time to share these past times with us, CYJ. I enjoy them all.