Human aggressive pitbull advice

[Earl Tudor]

IMHO, culling an animal that's still in it's adolescent stages due to a temperament flaw is wholly irresponsible. If you can't handle the situation, I completely agree that you should hand the dog over to someone who's more capable of giving him the structure he obviously needs, but I don't believe in TRULY human aggressive puppies in this breed, and therefore, don't believe in culling for it.

I have to disagree. I've had 3 puppies that were truly human aggressive over the last 20 years from my personal breedings. Now that being said, mine were raised by and along with my kids, and got ample socialization. These pups were straight man eaters, and had a genetic flaw. If it is a genetic flaw, no amount of structure is going to cure him. In my opinion it is better to error on the side of safety (especially with someone that this appears to be one of their first bulldogs), for your families sake.

[Officially Retired]

IMHO, culling an animal that's still in it's adolescent stages due to a temperament flaw is wholly irresponsible. If you can't handle the situation, I completely agree that you should hand the dog over to someone who's more capable of giving him the structure he obviously needs, but I don't believe in TRULY human aggressive puppies in this breed, and therefore, don't believe in culling for it.

Your beliefs don't necessarily reflect reality, and I don't think you have enough years in the dogs, nor have owned enough dogs, to have perspective.

Some dogs have minor personality flaws that can be worked on, and some dogs have no personality flaws at all, while some have serious disorders that are simply not worth the time (or risk) to deal with.

I have personally bought 2 dogs, both littermates, from the same breeder, and raised them the same way, and both dogs were 100% dangerous man-eaters genetically ... it was simply "in them" to be like that ... because I have never had any dog I have ever raised, of my own blood (nor of anyone else's) turn out that way.

Given the vast disparity of personality types, I don't see what is so hard to fathom that some dogs are simply man-eaters. Just like some people actually do grow up to be cold-blooded murderers. It happens.

Not saying this pup is a true man-eater (I haven't seen it), but I do know that truly man-aggressive dogs exist, and I do know that they are not suitable as pets. The responsibility any man has is to his family first, not to a dog he just bought. Sure, if the breeder wants him back, get a replacement. Or if he knows a serious, experienced dogman who wants the dog, give him away. Absent that, some dogs really do need to be put down. That is part of being responsible sometimes.

But that dog, if he's a true man-eater, has no business being in a family setting.

Jack


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[QCKLime]

Your beliefs don't necessarily reflect reality, and I don't think you have enough years in the dogs, nor have owned enough dogs, to have perspective.

I've owned dogs my entire life, Jack, and I work with them daily. I've been fostering "special needs" dogs since I was a teenager, and dealing professionally with rehabilitating them since I started working full time at 19. My career with dogs didn't start with my involvement in game dogs, I have loads of experience and perspective.

Some dogs have minor personality flaws that can be worked on, and some dogs have no personality flaws at all, while some have serious disorders that are simply not worth the time (or risk) to deal with.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, however, I don't believe that a PUPPY falls under the category of something not worth working with.

I have personally bought 2 dogs, both littermates, from the same breeder, and raised them the same way, and both dogs were 100% dangerous man-eaters genetically ... it was simply "in them" to be like that ... because I have never had any dog I have ever raised, of my own blood (nor of anyone else's) turn out that way.

Given the vast disparity of personality types, I don't see what is so hard to fathom that some dogs are simply man-eaters. Just like some people actually do grow up to be cold-blooded murderers. It happens.

Yes, some dogs are simply man-eaters, and not worth a person's time. However, this is a what? Nine, ten month old puppy? That he didn't get until he was five months old. It's one thing to raise a puppy, and know that you covered your bases in providing proper socialization, and they still turn out a rotten apple. Then yes, you can blame it on genetics and cut your losses. However, this is a puppy that he seems to not know a lot about it's upbringing, and hasn't given him an awful lot of time in his home, either, before jumping to the conclusion of "man eater." There are tons of people out there who misconstrue a dog's intention any number of ways, especially people who are apparently new to them. Maybe he's a rough playing puppy, maybe he's a puppy that's gotten away with too much and is acting out of being "spoiled" and would back down very quickly if the people he were "attacking" got onto him, maybe he's one of those dogs that "smiles", or one that nips out of excitement. There's an awful lot left up in the air without us seeing him to know what's truly going on, and the dog exhibiting "wonderful" qualities to this guy (assuming those qualities are temperament related and not something he's connecting to "gameness") means that he most likely has the potential to be a nice dog. It's exceedingly rare that puppies of any breed latch onto one person positively at such a young age, and denounce everyone else. It's even less likely in our breed. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it's rare enough that I doubt it to be the case in this scenario. If he's a good boy with the original poster, then in all likelihood, he can be a good boy with everyone else as well, with a little discipline.

Not saying this pup is a true man-eater (I haven't seen it), but I do know that truly man-aggressive dogs exist, and I do know that they are not suitable as pets. The responsibility any man has is to his family first, not to a dog he just bought. Sure, if the breeder wants him back, get a replacement. Or if he knows a serious, experienced dogman who wants the dog, give him away. Absent that, some dogs really do need to be put down. That is part of being responsible sometimes.

I agree with this 100%.

[Officially Retired]

I've owned dogs my entire life, Jack, and I work with them daily. I've been fostering "special needs" dogs since I was a teenager, and dealing professionally with rehabilitating them since I started working full time at 19. My career with dogs didn't start with my involvement in game dogs, I have loads of experience and perspective.

With all due respect, owning "doggies" your whole life, and dealing with combat-bred pit dogs that are true man eaters, is not the same thing. Given your age, if you have been professionally-rehabilitating dogs since you were 19, this means you've been rehabilitating dogs for a pretty short amount of time

And, truthfully, of the rehab dogs you work with at your local rehab center, I doubt many (if any) are actually man-eating combat dogs. I am not speaking of growly dogs that will nip or bite, I am talking about a true man-attacker: a true combat dog that will hit a human being with the same zeal and ferocity it will attack and try to dispatch another dog or cat. It is simply insane to talk about keeping a dog like that in a family setting. In fact, because you previously said "you don't believe in them," this pretty much implies you have never seen a true maneater before. Well, I have seen them before. They do exist, just as murderous human beings exist, even though "you" probably haven't seen one of these either. You need to come to terms with the fact that there are personality disorders in these dogs that "you" might not have experienced yet. Hell, I have never experienced one of these either in my own line, ever. But I sure have seen them in certain other lines.

Other than the maneating dogs I personally owned, I also personally knew (and was directly attacked by) the Kitana bitch, who was a straight man-killer. I am talking about she grabbed me by the skull and put about 50 stitches-worth in my head--and tried to go for my guts when I got her off and stood up. It is only because I know what I am doing that I am alive today, as Kitana was a 52-lb bitch. (Ask Mister on this forum about Kitana, because he bought her later in her life, and Mister and his whole crew all had to run and jump up on top of a car to get away from her when they got her out of the crate ). There was no "abuse" in Kitana's life; she was just a bonafide man-killer. I also know dogmen who have been in dogs longer than you've been alive, myself included, who have certain dogs that are so hardcore they need to be fed with a shovel. Even they as owners can't get near them. No amount of "rehabilitation" is going to make any true mankiller like that safe to be in a family situation. At best, a true man-killer can become a one-person dog. At worst, even their own owners can't get near them.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, however, I don't believe that a PUPPY falls under the category of something not worth working with.

We disagree on our beliefs then.

I strongly believe in genetics. Any dog that (without being mistreated) is so truly genetically-flawed that it would launch a full-blown attack on its owner, or his family, is not worth any kind of time invested trying to make it a house dog. You don't molly-coddle dogs like this, you kill (or get rid of) dogs like this. Trying to make a house dog out of a dog like that is like trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear. Wrong material for the job.

I wholeheartedly support your work with abused, or mistreated, dogs ... and I think you are to be commended for doing so ... but I wholeheartedly think your beliefs (though well-intentioned) are utterly misguided and that it would be ultimately catastrophic to try to make a man-eating combat dog into a "pet."

Yes, some dogs are simply man-eaters, and not worth a person's time.

We agree, and this would be an instance of it.

However, this is a what? Nine, ten month old puppy? That he didn't get until he was five months old. It's one thing to raise a puppy, and know that you covered your bases in providing proper socialization, and they still turn out a rotten apple. Then yes, you can blame it on genetics and cut your losses. However, this is a puppy that he seems to not know a lot about it's upbringing, and hasn't given him an awful lot of time in his home, either, before jumping to the conclusion of "man eater."

Cut your losses? Think for a moment about the ramifications of what you just said! What if one of the "losses" you're proposing this man "cuts" turns out to be the loss of a baby or child's life? Or a neighbor's child?

Your error in judgment here is to put "the chance this pup might be okay" AHEAD OF the chance that it might not be okay and hurt this man's family. Surely you're not suggesting that some defective "puppy" is more important than the man's family! Therefore, "the risk" of getting rid of some pup that "might" be okay is flyshit compared to the risk of what might happen to a family member (or neighbor) if the pups grows up not to be okay.

There are tons of people out there who misconstrue a dog's intention any number of ways, especially people who are apparently new to them. Maybe he's a rough playing puppy, maybe he's a puppy that's gotten away with too much and is acting out of being "spoiled" and would back down very quickly if the people he were "attacking" got onto him, maybe he's one of those dogs that "smiles", or one that nips out of excitement. There's an awful lot left up in the air without us seeing him to know what's truly going on, and the dog exhibiting "wonderful" qualities to this guy (assuming those qualities are temperament related and not something he's connecting to "gameness") means that he most likely has the potential to be a nice dog.

I agree with you 100% here. IF the puppy's behavior has simply been misconstrued by this man, and IF the puppy is just a feisty pup rough-housing and not a real threat, then I agree with your sentiments completely.

However, IF the puppy is exhibiting the signs of a true maneater, then I absolutely disagree with you and believe the dog should be put down, or given back to the breeder, but should definitely not be in a family situation.

And I also agree that a video would be very helpful to determine, for sure, what we're talking about so we can all be on the same page.

I agree with this 100%.

Well good

Cheers,

Jack


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[Officially Retired]

IMHO, culling an animal that's still in it's adolescent stages due to a temperament flaw is wholly irresponsible. If you can't handle the situation, I completely agree that you should hand the dog over to someone who's more capable of giving him the structure he obviously needs, but I don't believe in TRULY human aggressive puppies in this breed, and therefore, don't believe in culling for it.

I have to disagree. I've had 3 puppies that were truly human aggressive over the last 20 years from my personal breedings. Now that being said, mine were raised by and along with my kids, and got ample socialization. These pups were straight man eaters, and had a genetic flaw. If it is a genetic flaw, no amount of structure is going to cure him. In my opinion it is better to error on the side of safety (especially with someone that this appears to be one of their first bulldogs), for your families sake.

Exactly right. You canNOT hug and molly-coddle "all doggies."

Some dogs are simply dangerous and not worth the risk, just as some people are simply dangerous and not worth the risk, again (as you said) especially with a family on the line--and with a green owner to boot.

Jack

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[R2L]

good thread, good advice

i didn't read jack's book, but im sure you should re-read it if you think you can tell a 5 month old pup is game. id replace it immediately and let the breeder decide what's best for the pup

[wrknapbt]

I've owned dogs my entire life, Jack, and I work with them daily. I've been fostering "special needs" dogs since I was a teenager, and dealing professionally with rehabilitating them since I started working full time at 19. My career with dogs didn't start with my involvement in game dogs, I have loads of experience and perspective.

This is just my OP but in my years of dealing with this breed of dog and many other breeds I do not think/feel rehabilitating is something a dog needs to go thru. Rehabilitation is something based on HUMAN needs and not animal needs.

I do Schutzhund/IPO with my dogs and I do not deal with HA at all. I deal with clear headed animals that can see a threat and address it. I had a litter a little over 2 years ago and put two young adults down because they had issues. I do not deal with fearbased aggression nor shy dogs and all out aggression to humans.

Fear based aggression is developed when you have a shy dog that oneday growls because someone was about to touch or approach it but instead once the dog growls the person backs off. Kinda like kids ina playground or grown men shit talking/selling wolf tickets to get someone to leave them alone. So this bring them to the point where they have learned that they can give this reaction to keep people away. People asked me "why did you put them down?" Why would I place my problems on someone else is my question to them.

So anyway HA in anyform is not good in and you can put all of the bandaids/rehabilitation on it that you want but as soon as it get's wet it will peel off and show it's ugly head and make headlines again. Then we all suffer.

quick story: Had a friend with two really nice bred males that looked great standing on their chain spots. BUT they showed Human aggression issues. SO me being the bitework guy I look at them in the eyes and say to him they are punks who have learned to back people off with barks and growls . He was hell no thet dog will bite you.

I put on my sleeve and a leg sleeve and walked into the chain spot and the dogs ran into the dog houses. but when I turned my back they would come running out to nip at me. (bitch ass club punch)

He was shocked at what he saw. Yup school yard bullys who had someone stand up to them and they backed down.

[Marooda]

You should have done research on the APBT breed (and the history), the Breeder, and done an Aptitude test on the animal, which can give you a tremendous amout of information about it.

In your post you stated the animal acts insecure towards people and new enviroments which is an indication of one thing, the animal lacks socilization OR the only contact he had was abuse. The breeder could have sold the animal to another person and that person abused it (for one reason or another) then returned it to the breeder and more than likely neglected by the breeder when returned. Which to me is an indication that this breeder is a POS! There is no such thing as a bad dog only irresponsible breeders and bad owners.

A true game bred APBT will not show Civil drive, (the only way this happens is through outcrossing) nor display shyness or insecurity but rather shows confidence and true power and pure loyalty to it's master. I think you purchased this animal from a Backyard Breeder who only breeds to make money instead of making the breed better and could care less who buy his puppies. IMO I do not think you should get rid of the puppy afterall it's really Your Fault for not knowing anything about the APBT (but what you hear and see) not knowing anything about the breeder and falling for the BS that this backyardigan breeder laid on you.

I think this animal should be castrated and rehibilitated through pure socilization and love, given a job like a running partner or weight pulling or something in that arena as Bulldogs thrive on work.

I disagree with you wrknapbt, you said that rehibilitation is the needs of the human which is way inaccurate. If an animal is abused and shows distrust in humans, one of the best ways to correct this problem is through socilization and love AKA rehibilitation.

For the record, it is not my intent to make this post a heated discussion, So I apologize if I did this. I do not own an APBT but rather a fan of it's history, Spirit, Courage, and Tenacity and I do not agree with just anyone owning this breed, because in the wrong hands can be a time bomb waiting to blow.

[Officially Retired]

There is no such thing as a bad dog only irresponsible breeders and bad owners.[/i]

This is flat out untrue.

I guess you missed the part where Earl Tudor and myself have *both* have raised puppies from early-on to adulthood, the same way we've raised countless other happy loving pups, and these particular pups just grew up to be mankillers. It was simply in their nature.

Just because a dog is shy, or aggressive, doesn't mean it was "abused"; that is nothing but ignorant, tree-hugging propaganda. Sometimes it may be true, but not always.

The truth is, some dogs (just like some people) are simply genetic pieces of shit. Not every dog wants to be your friend, not every man wants to help little old ladies across the street. Some dogs want to kill you, and some men will invade homes of the elderly, steal from them, and kill them. This is why, when you have deviants like this, you kill them or get rid of them: they simply can't be trusted because they have malice in their hearts as part of their very nature.

I do agree that sometimes these defects can have to do with upbringing, but the simple fact is sometimes these things happen because the dog/man involved is just a defective, angry individual. The intelligent man would only keep a naturally-friendly, loving dog around his family, friends, and children. The fool is the one who leaves a naturally-angry animal alone with his family, friends, and children.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Just get rid of the animal. In my opinion, the human aggressiveness is an insecurity defense mechanism. They are born that way. More often than not, that dog wont make the cut when the pressure hits. I've seen the most human agressive ones be mild as can be after they STOP. All things being equal, you want a happy go lucky , I want everyone to pet me, I'll die trying to do whatever task you want me to do friendly BULLDOG. NOT TO MENTION..if he gets loose and mauls somebody, then you have made it hard for yourself AND all other responsible breeders and owners.

JUST MY OPINION.

A buddy of mine bought a human agressive littermate sister to a champion. She saw the hour mark and is the exception to the rule as it pertains to being HA and a bulldog. Interestingly enough, I never found out she was human aggressive until she left my house, she was never aggressive with me. I kept her for a week at my house while I bred her to Mr.Machobuck. I found out that she was human aggressiv when her owner picked her up and was terrified of her. At that point I said.. NO sir, I dont want pups. I want the stud fee. However, since I had previously agreed, I let him sell the pup to fund the stud fee. Your opinion may be different AFTER you get bit by a COMBAT bred dog. You may say that the dog deserves re-hab. But when a dog attacks you and is pushing to get in your thighs or groin, you'll reconsider. A 2xer grabbed my ankle pretty good and it was 6 months for me to get back on the tennis court. Weed it out. Cull that trait. Those dogs are NO GOOD. The risk is too high to your personal physical and financial well being, AND that of other responsible owners of the breed who will suffer the legislative consequences of your rehab attempt.

EK