Holland's haymaker

[CYJ]

Boston Blacky came down to J. Spruill place, to breed his Gr Ch Daisy Mae to Spruill's GR CH Jack. Said he wanted to breed Gr CH To GR CH. I have not been able to contact Spruill. For as I know, either the Daisy Mae bitch did not catch. Or the pups got papered another way or the breeding was a flop.

I have seen the best to the best bred and it was a flop. Jones bred some of James Crenshaw's cur stock and got some dogs good as Crenshaw had. Was what Crenshaw told me and V.J.

Reading one of those recent breeding articles on our site. Was mentioned a cold dog should be put down as well. That would have gotten rid of Patrick's Tombstone's sibling sister, that produced some excellent dogs. Would be no Tudor's Dibo strain of dogs. No Jocko-Red Boy dogs as the Jackson's Hank dog was cold till moved to my yard and Howle's yard. Dog fired up at around three years old and was a monster in the show ring.

IMHO, I believe what is the biggest breeding problem today since the late 60's. Is to much emphasize and Glory is put on the Super Stud dog male line and ignoring the Bitch line. The really old timers believed you preserved the game gene through the bitch dogs.

Trying to buy up a bunch of puppies to start a dog yard is very expensive, and time consuming. Like ATKJJJ has said. A dog breeder that is dishonest. Has already put you behind the eight ball. Such a breeder that comes to mind was ole Max Coats (Alias Jamie Long). LOL

If I was to get back in the dog game. You would be surprised where I would go to get a good solid brood bitch to start again with. Both are members on here. One cannot get signed back on after his lap top crashed. One lives near the Virginia/N.C. line and the other in S.C. Now for the super bite/ruggedness, tough hide, foul traits etc. on the male side. Probably to Texas. LOL

[EWO]

To Texas I agree.

And Max Coats/Jami Long was an excellent listener. Once he identified what you were looking for he just so happened to have it right out back. A close friend of mine who ignored all the advice we could give spent a chunk of money with MC/JL. Every dog he bought fit the bill that the one before did not.

If a guy is new to the dogs and/or new to a family of dogs breeding cold dogs is not such a good idea. Just not enough experience with the family. On the other hand if a person has raised 5/6 generations off the same dogs/same family of dogs then breeding a cold dog can be a viable option.

If only game dogs were bred there would not be a lot of dogs out there. It takes all kinds.

EWO

[Black Hand]

Breeding cold dogs does in fact turn out more cold dogs. Cur dogs is different as what is identified as a cur is very subjective. it's so hard to diagnose why a dog actually stopped, most do not want to deal with the thinking part of it or the scrutiny that may come with it. Plenty of deep game dogs hang it up on the behalf of their owners fuck ups and then said owner is amazed to find out that the pups off that cur were deep game in another man's hands. Huge grey area there. Cold dogs... not so much. I've bred a cold bitch, she was also off a cold bitch... not hard to guess what those pups were like even when the sire is clean of cold dogs for at least 6 gen. You can probably guess what lines she is down from as well... because they are known to throw cold bitches and them cold bitches have also thrown some bad SOB's. But this ties sort of into my other post on working your dogs for dock diving, bite work, etc. you will always reap what you sow! The environment has a profound impact on the dogs. Genes constantly firing on and off, expression and dormancy. It is really not a coincidence that so many cold bitches come from the Hollingsworth tree, because he didn't look at his females. they will produce nice dogs, they have a shit ton of nice dogs stacked in with those cold bitches. But follow the genealogy and know that the little decisions you make can have great impact down the road. Even the slightest environmental change can have great impact if it continues for generations.

[S_B]

Black Hand very well said, and I couldn't agree more.

S_B

[EWO]

Agreed. Then not so much.

I'm not a Hollingsworth fancier so I can't comment on them as far as cold dog producers.

I will agree if a cold bitch from a cold bitch is bred, the chances, and likelihood, of cold bitches would increase. On the other hand if a cold bitch pops up and the majority of her brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, and parents and grandparents were bulldogs then the odds of her throwing more cold dogs go down.

That is where the experience comes in with an entire family of dogs of the same strain. If I had bred 5-6-7 generations of those Hollingsworth dogs and had success a high percentage of the time I can make a better decision about a cold dog.

If I go out and buy my first bull dog, or even my first Hollingsworth dog, and she turns out cold I am on a slippery slope if I breed her.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=48127

This dog is going on 4. He is cold. In my younger years he would have been culled at 2. He had a ~cousin bred similar from the same dogs who did not turn on to well after three, close to four and then won four by the time he was 5 1/2. Skull threw some good dogs along the way as well. I have given Sluggo that same chance.

He will get one more bump to start and if he shows no interest I will give him away.

The bottom side has Ruby a deep game winning bitch with a lot of finish. Out of Bobby, one of those thick hided, durable and hard mouthed Holland dogs and Ramera a deep game bitch that scratched after having her shoulder socket exposed (GBK Sugarfoot 2XW). Never walked the same. Her top side is out of a Boo who proved to be a match dog and in turn produced match dogs. Mick was a deep game dog who threw game dogs. We owned a lot of dogs out of Rainbow dogs never seen one quit,Backed up by Jiggs who threw rough and solid mouth Red Boy dogs.

I'm waiting on Sluggo. I have thought about breeding him as he is a good looking dog, well bred, yet cold. The only reason that I will not breed to him is that the only experience I have with the Holland strain is what I have seen in Ruby and Bobby. Bobby had a sister who I heard was a fair dog and another sister who made one half hearted scratch and the GAME box was checked in order to get to the brood pen. Not enough personal experience which is more variable than I am comfortable with when breeding.

If I had a lot of Holland experiences, seen a lot of Holland dogs, and felt comfortable the hard mouth, thick hided, durable dogs were indeed straight Holland dogs I would be inclined to breed to Sluggo. Based on all involved. Since that is not the case I do not I have enough information to breed to him. But if I did......

With all that said I am not a breeder. I always left breeding to the people who were willing to put their product out there. What little I breed stays at my house, or within striking distance. I only breed bitches when there are chain spaces available. The cold dog to hot dog opinion, is just that, opinion.

EWO

[S_B]

EWO I'm not sure I understand why you're hung up on the Holland blood as a decision maker on this particular dog. Especially being the fact that particular strain is basically Mr. Bulldog x Brandy Girl just like the Mims' Dopey/Jiggs stuff. If you're familiar with those dogs being late starters this strain shouldn't change things much. Now me personally I'd be looking at the Chinabuck portion of that ped to ask those questions. Especially since it's concentrated on Chinaman who didn't crank until 4.

We each have our own methods to breeding/using certain dogs and I respect that. I just personally wouldn't use any dog lacking the very trait that I was looking for unless they were the last of the mohicans and there was no other choice to preserve a particular line.

S_B

[EWO]

Agreed.

My point is that I believe the Dopey/Jiggs stuff to be correct and they throw the same. I have a female out there that might as well be Brandy Girl herself.

On the Holland side there is much speculation that those particular Holland dogs in the pedigree are not down from Dopey/Brandy.

As far as Ramera and her lineage. Low percentage dogs down from the Snooty/Molly Bee/Chinabuck type dogs. Granted they could all bite but percentages were low. The kicker is that when you had one that would stay you could ride up and down the road with anyone. The ones that were game threw low percentages as well. This factors as well.

This factors as well. If he were an easy keeper, laid back, slow on the chain Snooty/Molly Bee/Chinabuck type dog, like the others I have owned, I would have pulled the plug earlier because it would be cold but leaning toward the lower percentage strain.

But since he is more Red Boy like and a lot like Skull I have decided to wait. Maybe his fourth birthday will be a magic pill.

I was mostly using him as an example as there is a difference between cold and simply choosing not to know at all.

EWO

[CYJ]

There are basically two types of Curs. First type is in the schooling faze and the schooling is properly done. The dog is hot and mad to have dog contact. Once given the chance and things start to get rough. It starts wanting out of the situation and when the pressure is off this type dog. It shows great relief and will stand the line.

The worst of the worst type cur is the one that is in top shape and makes it to a show. IMHO is why I believe one should never put up a large Show ring fee on the first get go. No matter how well a show dog shows out in it's schooling.

This type Cur stays mostly top dog or even. Needing too make one more scratch or two to win, stands the line. IMHO both types should be discarded and never given away to a newbie in the game. These are those dogs in a lot of our pedigrees from the past that can come back to haunt us when the stakes are high.

Now I do not advocate just breeding every cold dog. But there are those situations where one that has a lot of experience with their own family of dogs can do so. There are many variables. Certain strains of these dogs mature slower than other strains. One defiantly is dogs heavily bred around those Tudor Dibo strain of dogs.

Some times the better female siblings of a female cold dog will not raise puppies or produce a bunch of high strung nut cases. The other is being the last living sibling of a great breeding. One last thing if a cold dog is used at least one time to see how it produces. That dog should be very well built with no bad psychical traits. Still a cold dog should only be used as a last resort.

IMHO opinion the best breeding's are the ones that produced a high percentage of game dogs hopefully with great ability. Many times I have seen this done. Yet that breeding is never repeated much as possible. Instead it's off to the next hottest stud dog on the market. By the time most of this is figured out. The original dogs are dead or to old to breed or the breeder has gotten discourage and quit the game. Sounds like a big ole Minnie Me. LOL Cheers

[CYJ]

Hey, the way things are today. Cold dogs or quitting dogs being bred would be the least of my worries.

The over all best way to operate. Is too work at being a top show dog conditioner. Keep up with the shows, the newbies and small dog yards like Mr. Maurice Carver did.

Find the type dog you like, you then can stay under the radar. Able to deal with one dog and give it all the attention it needs. When the Dog Show is over, generally the winning dogs and the top conditioners are the ones ever remembered. Cheers

[EWO]

Agreed. I'm not a breeder so these are just my opinions on what I have seen from other breeders.

I can't breed to a cold dog because I do not have the space to wait and see how things turn out. I have often debated waiting on Sluggo.

On the flip side I can see where someone with a ton of experience within a family of tight bred dogs could use a cold bitch from within that family.

I think my biggest shortcoming when it comes to the dogs is measuring gameness. I like all the terms, deep game, pit game, dead game, etc. etc. The one that always factored in my decision making process was 'game enough'. I measured the qualities I was looking for in a bulldog gave them a rating and if they rated high enough we found a cheap one to get them out on the playing field.

What I have also seen is a ton of mouth or top notch conditioning hide the cur for a number of gatherings. I'm thinking at some point they used the 'game enough' rating system as well.

It is a slippery slope. A lot of programs are centered on game dogs and preserving the gameness of the breed. Some are simply concerned with having enough dog to win.

Sometimes the two coincide sometimes they are completely separate from one another.

EWO