Question For the Board......

[Earl Tudor]

I'm going to have to disagree. They are 3 years old and you said, "they cranked right up". That to me shows they had the enthusiasm and will to do what they were bred to do from the very get go once they were released. If they are not showing that same enthusiasm to scratch after cranking right up AND not being hurt at all, for less than 15 min, then on my yard they would be culled. I also don't consider that a game check in any form from your description. However, I don't know your line and what is normal for what you feed. If it's common practice for your dogs to need to the age of 3 to know for sure they'll start, then maybe then aren't started, but the scenario you gave to me implied otherwise.

[luvmybulldogs]

The scenario i gave is exactly how it happened. i also felt the same way and expressed it to my partner but hey.... another look wont hurt. I just wait on them that's all and my partner did a year of the three years on vacation. I was working with them while he was away and conditioning their minds. That's why i felt so strongly about what happened and i felt they should be culled. we dont have a lot of space, both hounds are well of age, and even though unschooled, I felt the willingness to continue should have been there. Now jack made a point about fighting a cur. Hound B is not worth a chain spot, period. Hound A will get another look.... both was going to be looked at again but hound B showed nothing at all.

[Officially Retired]

I understand the difference between schooling and checking. The weight she is we dont have many the same size, and if you ask other folks to play they going to bring a good one trying to prove a point or something so we use or own with our own. That being said.... I can admit i may have rushed to judge especially considering the dogs dont even know what to do yet.... That was a valid point. But sometimes when ya got two people involved instead of trying to make the other one see your point or vice versa, ya gotta find a common ground.... I got it... Talked to my friend earlier and both will get another look. NOW THAT BRINGS ME TO THIS..... When u say they dont know what to do..... are you saying one can be taught to go????

Well, the trouble with blanket statements is they never apply to all dogs, and by that I mean the truth of how "one" dog matures isn't necessarily the truth for how "another" dog matures.

Your two dogs may both be rank curs, one may be rank and the other one is just not yet with the program, or both dogs may still have potential that just hasn't been allowed to bloom yet.

To show what I mean, my Pretty Boy dog was fully-started by 6 weeks old. He had to be separated from his litter by 6 weeks of age. He was sold to a greenhorn who let him get to 16 months of age, and instead of rolling Pretty Boy and schooling him, this guy matched Pretty Boy whose first time down in a box EVER was a contracted match ... that went 2:42 ... and Pretty Boy won (in the only way that his no-talent ass could win) on gameness. Very few dogs could have done, at 16 months of age, on their first time down, what Pretty Boy did! Pretty Boy was essentially "fool-proof," in that even an incredible fool like his owner couldn't mess him up because Pretty Boy just loved to do his thing since Day 1.

All right, well, Silverback was nothing like Pretty Boy. He was a happy pup and grew up around other dogs, never once showing any aggression at all. When he was young, one of my bitches grabbed him, and Silverback DOA'd her within 5-6 min. I was literally gone for no more than 10 min and came back to a stone-dead bitch. Choked TF out. Yet Silverback wasn't really "on," he just wouldn't take shit and (little did I know at the time) was a rare natural-born finisher. When I came back, he was standing over the dead bitch wagging his tail like a puppy. IMO, he did what he did in self-defense, and did not start it.

Yet still, on his first "look" at 16 mos, Silverback actually ran passed the other dog and jumped up on the other handler wanting to "play" After the other dog grabbed him, Silverback sat there for a moment, like his feelings were hurt ... like he thought everybody was his friend and couldn't believe anyone would want to hurt him

Within a few seconds of being attacked, however, Silverback threw down the gauntlet, and very shortly the other dog needed to be picked up to be saved. That "other dog" was Pretty Boy, the game dog that went 2:42. Well, he would have been DOA in under :10 with the 2-lb bigger Silverback 8-)

Yet, when separated, Silverback wasn't quite sure what he was supposed to do --- he had been raised as a pet and thought he was a "bad boy" for doing stuff like that --- but he did go over there, a bit tentatively, and completed his scratch. He did the same thing on his next time down ... ran passed the other dog, then got pissed when he was grabbed, then handled his business ... because he spent another couple of months being a house dog. Yet, by his 3rd time down Silverback "got it" and realized when he saw another adult male in a [] ... that it was time to rock-and-roll ... and boy could he rock-and-roll, just totally dominating whatever he was with, and in a hurry. He no longer scratched tentatively, but hard and with brutal intent. Yet, at home, he still realizes he is a "bad boy" to show aggression ... smart dogs are like that

The moral of the story is I did not try to "judge" the dog on his first try. His talent was naturally awesome, but in his head he was still a happy puppy, and he was never really all that aggressive (at least not until he gets hurt). I honestly think that if I had put Silverback on an un-started piece of shit, that cur-snapped and then stood there, hell Silverback might not have started. And he might not have gone over there either on his first time. Totally different scene. However, because Pretty Boy really laid it into his ass, and then was being held over there in the corner going apeshit for the separation, that kept the young Silverback geeked-up too, which was part of his motivation for going back over there: enthusiasm.

So, again, if I were you I wouldn't rush to any decisions over ANYTHING after a first look against another green opponent. To me, it has nothing to do with "not being hurt," it has more to do with the level of intensity. Two green dogs squawking at each other, and then letting go and standing there, sounds more like totally-inexperienced first-time bullshit than anything I personally would make a decision over. Myself, I would instead put something on each one that is fully-schooled, fully-started, and for real intense, and see how your dogs each handles a bulldog, not a fellow funny-acting beginner.

Sure, a dog like Pretty Boy is easier to make judgment calls on, and doesn't require as much work to get pointed in the right direction ... however, as fully-schooled, fully-mature animals Silverback could go through 3 of Pretty Boy without getting too hot, so it was worth the extra effort ... and neither Pretty Boy's 'ease of starting,' nor his early deep gameness, could give him a snowball's chance in hell of whipping The Gorilla 8-)

Jack

[Earl Tudor]

I agree with your assessment of Silverback, but your description of his beginnings sound nothing like what luvmybulldogs described, as he wasn't started and you stated, "Yet still, on his first "look" at 16 mos, Silverback actually ran passed the other dog and jumped up on the other handler wanting to "play". That wasn't the implication I got for luvmybulldogs with his statement of:

.... you have 2 hounds that you've waited on until these hound is over 3 years old. Now you stick hound A and hound B together and they crank right up....

Maybe my defintion of "crank right up" is different. At the end of the day, one has to know their dogs and do what is best for their yard accordingly. Like I said, with my definition of "crank right up", on my yard, that scenario would nave led me to extract them from my program. Although I must admit, for my yard, all of this would have bee started well before the age of 3 as well.

[Officially Retired]

I hear you Earl.

I do agree that a clarification needs to be made on exactly what "cranked right up" means. Did each dog immediately run over and take hold, no nonsense, or did they both stand there growling first?

I just like to leave no room for doubt, so if I had two dogs both acting like that at the end, I would personally pull out an old pro (like Pretty Boy) that I didn't have to analyze or worry about, and keep my focus on only one of the two dogs. It may just prove to be a waste of time, and maybe it would have quit again, but at least I would never second-guess myself, and wonder "what if?"

I think the consequences are dire enough for each animal, and the scenario questionable enough, so that it won't hurt to have a second (more professional) look at them and see for sure.

Yet everybody's got to make their own decisions, but that's what I would do

[BulldogConnection]

The first mistake was putting two untouched dogs on each other. This is a great way to teach bad habits and really slow down schooling. Also most times than not you won't get what you want out of it. Not saying this is true in all cases as there are untouched or young dogs that know what todo instinctively but if you're going todo it you might as well do it the most logical way. You want to use a dog that you know will go over there and take hold when you need it to and give the inexperienced dog some good looks.

Personally I wouldn't keep those dogs as I have no need for 3 year old dogs that won't go but if your partner thought he saw something in that dog or feels like it just needs some more time to figure out the deal then more power to him. If you respect him enough to call him a partner then give him the benefit of the doubt. Very rarely will two people agree on everything all the time. Now if he starts making a habit of keeping curs or making excuses for dogs and that's not what you're about then you might want to think about parting ways.

[luvmybulldogs]

Hound A went over and took hold hound b was growling, trotted a few steps forward and was met by hound A and was dominated the entire time. My partner's view tends to side more with what Jack is saying.... I say cull both and move on. Reason being, we dont have a ton of space. The dogs are well kept and well managed. I give them the best opportunity to prove themselves worthy, so when the time comes to make that decision i have no qualms because i have done my part. THE BOTTOM LINE IS.... RATHER THEY KNEW WHAT TO DO OR NOT, I STILL BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE BOTH WANTED TO CONTINUE IN ORDER TO BE SOMETHING I WOULD CONSIDER KEEPING. To each his own i guess, however.... it wont hurt to give'em another go either. The next bitch will be a little smaller but she will know from jump street that "she aint whistlin' dixie".....

[Officially Retired]

Hound A went over and took hold hound b was growling, trotted a few steps forward and was met by hound A and was dominated the entire time.

It sounds to me like Dog A would be more of a candidate for being a cur than Dog B, if Dog A started right up and quit, while Dog B just tried to "fight back" and never really started.

My partner's view tends to side more with what Jack is saying.... I say cull both and move on. Reason being, we dont have a ton of space. The dogs are well kept and well managed. I give them the best opportunity to prove themselves worthy, so when the time comes to make that decision i have no qualms because i have done my part.

Did you really do your part? I am not sure any top dogman I know would call tossing 2 green dogs together, without schooling either one, and then rendering judge and jury "doing your part."

I think, deep down, you know you failed to take a lot of steps ... which is why you're posting this here

THE BOTTOM LINE IS.... RATHER THEY KNEW WHAT TO DO OR NOT, I STILL BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE BOTH WANTED TO CONTINUE IN ORDER TO BE SOMETHING I WOULD CONSIDER KEEPING. To each his own i guess, however....

The bottom line is you took short-cuts and are now second-guessing yourself. Had you fully-schooled each animal, and not thrown 2 green dogs together, where one grabbed the other and then "let go" after a few minutes, you wouldn't have any doubts at all. However, because deep down in your bones you know you skipped a lot of steps going from "untouched" to "judged", you're here second-guessing the scenario.

To me it sounds like your partner wants to be sure, and you don't want to be bothered with it.

it wont hurt to give'em another go either. The next bitch will be a little smaller but she will know from jump street that "she aint whistlin' dixie".....

I think this is only sensible and fair.

Jack

[luvmybulldogs]

Again, it was my mistake in putting two unstarted dogs together... I guessed right on hound a but hound b fooled me. i respect my partner and dogs damn sure wont change our friendship. If we had 80 acres, or even 8 acres... i would understand a little more. its not like that. especially when there are others to be involved with that i feel have more potential. i feel like a good one wants to, likes to, enjoys it.... and im really unsure if that can be taught or not... schooling can and will improve some things but it wont improve her willingness.... and after such a short period of time with minimal damage, i felt like her willingness to continue should have been there, no questions asked. First time or not. skill has nothing to do with heart.

[Officially Retired]

Again, it was my mistake in putting two unstarted dogs together... I guessed right on hound a but hound b fooled me. i respect my partner and dogs damn sure wont change our friendship. If we had 80 acres, or even 8 acres... i would understand a little more. its not like that. especially when there are others to be involved with that i feel have more potential. i feel like a good one wants to, likes to, enjoys it.... and im really unsure if that can be taught or not... schooling can and will improve some things but it wont improve her willingness.... and after such a short period of time with minimal damage, i felt like her willingness to continue should have been there, no questions asked. First time or not. skill has nothing to do with heart.

Exactly right, so why should your dogs pay for your mistake?

Regarding your beliefs that every dog should immediately scratch back, whether hurt or not, would you say Chinaman and Dibo didn't really "have heart" because they didn't start, and wouldn't go back, their first time either?

You might want to consider the possibility that the way you see things "every dog should go back on its first time down, or it sucks," is an incorrect view of reality

The reality is, some dogs that "start right away and go over" ... go on to quit later ... while some dogs that "don't start and go over right away" ... eventually mature-out into deeply-game, talented dogs.

History has proven both scenarios time and again. For this reason, it is always better to take ALL of the necessary steps to success, rather than try to skip them.