Brood stock

[gilamonster]

I was told by L.D that the only time you should do a bro/sis breeding is if both the parents are no longer around, and ONLY if the Whole litter was game. Again it comes down to ones own experiences and results of said breedings. We all know that one of the main purposes of inbreeding is to keep or capture the quality caricture we are seeking to preserve. So I could see why L said what he said. What the late great Mr. Carver was trying to touch on I THINK with his statement is you will always get both the good and bad traits in lightning fast speed. If you are not extremely carefull, brutaly honest, and ruthless you can dig yoursellf a hole by locking in the bad traits just as easy as the good. This is were the study of genetics is imperative.JMO

[Officially Retired]

Good post, which pretty much sums it up: inbreeding is merely genetic magnification.

And, in using this magnification tool we call "inbreeding," you will increase whatever traits you have noticeably. The trouble with using this tool is oftentimes this means you magnify the bad traits! For example, using slightly cow-hocked (related) parents, who are still competitive, might produce an absolutely bowl-legged undershot offspring that can't whip a puppy. Or, in another example, using slightly short-winded parents inbred together might produce an offspring that can't run around its chain spot without getting heat stroke. Therefore, since most people use dogs that aren't really very good to begin with, when they inbreed on them that get "all crap" ... and so they blame "the inbreeding" rather than their poor selection of "which dogs" to plug-into the formula!

Because, so too can you inbreed one super-athletic, structurally-wonderful dog back to its equally-wonderful, athletically-exceptional relative and get just a fantastic litter of all-wonderful, fast, super-athletic animals ... IF you plug the right dogs into the inbreeding equation

It all boils down to SELECTION.

Jack

PS: If you make a super-tight inbreeding off of two excellent dogs, and some of them come out lousy, while most of them come out excellent ... the excellent dogs have essentially been "purified" of the bad traits and are what you carry your line forward with.

[STONEWALL]

"It all boils down to SELECTION.

Jack"

Bottom line.

[apeman]

bump up for 2020...

[Frank43]

good post. Let me see if I can use spacing and punctuation as was recommended with me.

I’m considering a brother sister for the following reason. To lock in traits. The dogs I’m thinking about are still young. Like 357 similar cross different dogs. Rbj bt.

These are the reasons I would do it. One little female out of the litter has the rbj fire, work ethic, athleticism from somewhere, brains, she uses her head when some loose it. She even looks like Butkus to me. She has a brother I have mentioned earlier. Super smart, a little later starter, early indications that he can close his jaws, he keeps his head when it’s rough, he has the rbj wind. His problem is a more narrow backend. Maybe the backend improves with age. I’m expecting it to be one of the things that presents in the pups. It’s something I would be looking to sort through early. I found out another sister with a better backend may also be able to close it. I still swear I hear her wheezing when she was born. I haven’t worked her so I don’t know what her exercise tolerance is All three got some bolio tombstone smarts. These are some things to consider. Hopefully I could get brood female out of this.

Time will tell. I’m waiting awhile. One of the common threads of people that get jammed up is they end up with too many dogs not fed and cared for correctly.

I look at gaston’s foundation and 357 what he produced. Trying to lock in the positives of both bloodlines seems like it’s worth the risk. Then as you mentioned. Cross to a related dog. Machobear semen, little john junior, puma, rocky redman. There are some pockets of Gaston blood out there.

[Devildog5811]

I completely agree, successful inbreeding is all about rigorous selection, and starting with the best possible genetic material. I always remember the story of Cleopatra when it comes to inbreeding. In genetics you can't breed out unwanted traits you can only suppress them(make them recessive) , sooner or later if you don't select properly they will come out .Cleopatra was supposedly the most beautiful woman in the world, she was a product of incest, her brother was the complete opposite he was born with physical deformities. Great read .

[ROCK-MACHINE]

A great little thread, I recommend reading Animal Breeding Plans by Jay Laurence Lush, it can be a bit heavy at times but is a fascinating read just the same.

https://ia801602.us.archive.org/24/i...l-Breeding.pdf

[Frank43]

That’s some damn good reading. It’s crazy how stuff like that was written 100 years ago and it’s still true.

Here’s a judgement question. I had a foundation male get lost unexpectedly. He was a solid dog. He threw some of the traits he had with consistency to the litter he had. The breeding was basically an outcross breeding. My plan was to breed towards the middle of the two and towards the mother. He threw strength, work ethic, gameness.

Here is the management decision. I have his daughters and sons. One daughter is like him with some brains of his mother. One son seemed to be dumb game like him. Another fiery and has some talent. The other I kept is more towards the mother. I can do some brother sister breedings with some of sons. Pull offspring that were like him.

I could try to recreate him. He was 1/4 Hollingsworth bull 1/4 tant 1/2 Waccamaw. He has a brother I could breed to. Half Hollingsworth bull half tant. Use him straight. Or what I’m leaning towards doing. Get a cottingham female. Breed her to his uncle. Hopefully get the work ethic drive and strength get some more athleticism and smaller dogs. Try to buy the mom and breed to the uncle or make a deal to breed the uncle back to him. He threw some well built strong af kids. He couldn’t keep teeth in his mouth and could be stupid hot. The female he bred is half cold and smart with finish so they worked well.

Breeders what would you do. This is the stuff that isn’t in the books. I had some breeding plans. Honestly I was planning to back cross into kids of his kids to put fire in them.

[Frank43]

I go back and re-read these things a lot. There is a lot of wisdom in them. Its hard to find people to talk to about some of this. On the topic of brother sister. ch 357 was a brother sister breeding . It was off an outcross of 100% unrelated animals. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=329

Brother and sister in types of inbreedings is the highest.

Why did it work in this case and so so in the poncho/missy litter. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=224

the coefficients are I think around 9 percent on the inbreeding calculator. I wonder if functionally its higher because most of them go back to Patrick breedings of bolio and tombstone. Ch Butkus had a coefficient of .56% at 10 generations. If I was trying to lock in traits in two different lines that found their way into individuals your highest chance to get one in an individual is a brother sister.

Opinons?

[bossman311]

The Dogs will tell you which ones to breed to based on performance even when sticking within your own family of dogs.

But even with that being said there are age old breeding schemes and patterns that will allow you to know without a doubt how to keep certain traits while introducing new ones.

Brother and sister's breeding IMO lose more than 1/2 brother and sisters.
You may double the good but you will tripple the bad.
That's a given.

It's more to getting a brood dog just becuase you bred a brother and sister or any other inbred type.
People use the term brood over foundation these dyas it seems .

It's keeping your foundation with vigor that will keep them going more than jamming them up to try and take short cuts.

A well bred line bred dog using the 1/2 brother and sister method over and over aka using a pattern, can and will give you better results than just brother and sister for the sake of brother and sister.

Years ago a well known dogman and I had a convo and both agreed in most cases allot or just too lazy to take the time needed to put it together and just do the brother and sister than line breeding the 1/2 brother and sister.
Those take more planing and time to see what 1/2 sibling worhs the best with each other.
What's and top and what's on bottom makes a big difference even with 1/2 siblings.

Breedings are trial and erra but that still does not mean just breed 2 dogs together because the are related.
I bred plenty of dogs to know it's better in the long run to keep the hybred vigor from line breeding than it is just to assume the traits will be .

It's maintaining the base /foundation that will keep them going more than just trying short cuts and breeding brother and sister.

It does not matter what few full brother and sisters breeding did good it's more that did not.
don't need to have lesser dogs as broods.

It's about keeping you good key dog on both top and bottom of each dog in each generation when breeding with vigor as much as possible.

It's and easy to read pedigree with a clear and distinct breeding scheeme(pattern) and in all of these generations on 1 full brother and sister (Hicks Mason) was done in this dogs history becuase his grand parents were not bred tight .

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=88556