((( Great Pit Dogs who were NOT APBTs )))

[No Quarter Kennel]

Good reads - Thanks

[skipper]

This is a Psycho bred dog, with a few small outs of mainly DRS, Duke and some Raparee. 24 Lbs on the scale.

[Officially Retired]

There aren't many left. Due to heavy inbreeding most of todays stafford are much smaller. It's just like the apbt some bloodlines tends to be bigger. But the ones I'm most familiar with are down from the psycho/northford bloodlines. The ones I have seen weighs approx. Females 20-30 lbs Males 25-40 lbs, in generall. IMO The staffords are alot more easygoing then the apbt. But it's basicly the same breed. Take a look at the Colby bloodline, very similiar to the staffords. In the end they are all gamedogs.

LOL, that sounds like my dogs -- although I am not sure it is due to heavy inbreeding, but merely to selection.

Ch Hammer was born 30 years ago, and was a 32-34 lb male ... and now, nearly 3 decades later of line- and inbreeding, my males are from 30-36 lb generally.

Coca Cola was born 20 years ago, and was a 26 lb bitch ... and nor, over 2 decades later of line- and inbreeding, my Coki dogs are from 25-32 lb generally.

Small dogs tend to be faster and more athletic, pound-for-pound, so they're usually the ones selected (though not always).

Jack

[AmberLamps]

In following the subject brought up by Skipper on the other mentioned thread, this thread here shall be dedicated to that off-topic digression, namely to discuss known great pit dogs who were not APBT, such as the following dog brought up by MTK: Dock's GR CH Duke.

I have heard that name before, MTK, but don't know much about him. Do you know if he fought pit bulls for his Gr Ch Ship, other Staffordshire Bull Terriers, or a mixture of both?

How bout any other great non-APBT pit dogs?

Gr Ch Duke was waaaay before my time, so I have little knowledge about him.

I believe all his wins were over Staffords, although he was schooled with pitbulls heavier than himself.

There were far more working Staffords about back then, so it may of just been a case of it being easier to match into another Stafford rather than an APBT, as opposed to today where a Stafford meeting another stafford in the [] would be a rarity. Both those modern day Staffords Skipper mention in the other thread had to face and beat APBT's in earning their titles; So they can and do compete with APBT's.

Another great Stafford from around the time of Gr Ch Duke was Scar kennels Gr Ch Rocky 5xw, although a legit Gr Ch he wasn't recognised by the SDJ.

[gabbagabbahey]

Scar Kennels rated Rocky as being on a par with almost everything they owned in the bulldogs. They had some great bulldogs,which says a whole lot for Rocky.
It was talked on of Rocky meeting Duke but it never came off.

[Officially Retired]

That would be a bitter-sweet pill of two great Staffordshire Bull Terriers meeting ... on the one hand, it would establish which was *the* best, and yet on the other it would (in all probability) remove one of them from the gene pool, or possibly both.

[gabbagabbahey]

I was wrong in saying great bulldogs. Some were rated very highly & if they were around today then the blood would be sought after. It is not all lost,which is good.
The two Gr Ch staffords were around at a time that most lads were moving across to the bulldogs so were not used in a breeding programme unfortunately. Duke was bred to a very good Ch stafford female but the offspring were not as hoped. He produced several match dogs when bred to a bulldog. The last watered down blood would be coming through a female called Dutch.
Rocky was only bred once,to a bulldog. Produced at least one match dog which lost to a bulldog..
If theere was frozen semen of either dog today then the stafford fanciers would be queueing up.

[Officially Retired]

I was wrong in saying great bulldogs. Some were rated very highly & if they were around today then the blood would be sought after. It is not all lost,which is good.
The two Gr Ch staffords were around at a time that most lads were moving across to the bulldogs so were not used in a breeding programme unfortunately. Duke was bred to a very good Ch stafford female but the offspring were not as hoped. He produced several match dogs when bred to a bulldog. The last watered down blood would be coming through a female called Dutch.
Rocky was only bred once,to a bulldog. Produced at least one match dog which lost to a bulldog..
If theere was frozen semen of either dog today then the stafford fanciers would be queueing up.

Interesting anecdote.

It's sad that, although Duke was bred to a good Staffordsire bitch, it didn't produce very well ... but it's even sadder that they didn't breed the offspring back to Duke. People who really understand breeding know that "ability" can skip a generation, same as nose color or many other traits.

A lot of people "abandon ship" WAY too early in their breeding program, and lose their good blood, because they're not patient/knowledgeable enough to realize that, with a few minor breeding adjustments, you can get the world class ability right back out of your average dogs again ... if world class ability is "in there."

Jack

[gabbagabbahey]

I don't believe there has been a breeder in that part of the world who has been so focused in a similar way to yourself Jack. I understand what you are saying & agree on your thoughts on putting Duke back to a daughter out of the stafford female. Go from there & run the full litter on would have been a good idea. Also,this would have been the early 80's & a lot of the lads were green,so would have most probably culled any failures. In truth that is what most would do today in that part of
the world,regardless on how they were bred. It is
hard to keep sporting dogs there so any yard
would be limited in size & most lads were moving
over to the bulldogs at that time. Selling the
staffords to help pay for them. You could say the
re-introduction of the bulldog was the beginning
of the end for the sporting stafford. It would have
been interesting if this never happened,where the stafford would be today.
There is still some titled staffords in Europe who
have proven themselves to be good dogs,but there
is a major lack of yards who work them.
Also,don't let the writings mislead you in thinking
there was or is world class staffords who could
compete with likewise bulldogs. World class
staffords yes,but i am pretty sure they would
struggle against a world class bulldog of the same weight.
Rare you get an interest from a bulldog man like yourself,so it is good to see you appreciate the breed.

[Officially Retired]

I don't believe there has been a breeder in that part of the world who has been so focused in a similar way to yourself Jack. I understand what you are saying & agree on your thoughts on putting Duke back to a daughter out of the stafford female. Go from there & run the full litter on would have been a good idea. Also,this would have been the early 80's & a lot of the lads were green,so would have most probably culled any failures. In truth that is what most would do today in that part of
the world,regardless on how they were bred.

There is no reason to cull average dogs. A breeder needs to understand that all things revert back to the average, and that all you need to do is re-shuffle the deck, and you'll get your aces again.
Sure it is better to breed to the ace end of the litter, but great dogs can still come from mediocre ones, if you line up the genes right. Gr Ch Buck, for example, came out of two average linebred Bolio dogs.

It is
hard to keep sporting dogs there so any yard
would be limited in size & most lads were moving
over to the bulldogs at that time. Selling the
staffords to help pay for them.

I know that all-too-well ... I have sold a ton of dogs I wish I had kept ... and yet I have never had any problem breeding world class dogs from what's right here on the yard either.

You could say the
re-introduction of the bulldog was the beginning
of the end for the sporting stafford. It would have
been interesting if this never happened,where the stafford would be today.
There is still some titled staffords in Europe who
have proven themselves to be good dogs,but there
is a major lack of yards who work them.

All of these laws are basically doing what they intend to do, and that is exterminating the breed. If things weren't so bad, I would still have 80-100 dogs. But because of the way they are, I have sold-off all my dogs, and mostly provide information about them now. I am sure it is like that over there, and made worse (for the Staffords) by the fact bulldogs are more mainstream. But I really can't tell the difference between a Stafford and a Bulldog, physically!

Also,don't let the writings mislead you in thinking
there was or is world class staffords who could
compete with likewise bulldogs. World class
staffords yes,but i am pretty sure they would
struggle against a world class bulldog of the same weight.

I don't know enough about them to comment, but it sounds like some of them whipped the best bulldogs too. With the right breeding program, and enough specimens, I am sure a good breeder could keep them highly-competitive.

Rare you get an interest from a bulldog man like yourself,so it is good to see you appreciate the breed.

I just like game dogs, my friend, and I find it kind of a refreshing change/twist to discuss the history and accomplishments of another (and closely-related) breed

Jack