Conditioning only on a Raw feed diet or a Kibble with Supplement added diet?

[EWO]

The kicker is that the dogs have not evolved to the point that nutritional information from the 70's and 80's will not work.

I think some go a little far with supplementation. The ingredients are great but the dog does not get that full feeling and in turn does not digest as well. The greens and/or the use of kibble help keep the gut/digestive tract working. This is a must if the particular keep allows the dog to stay outside.

In the colder months, a keep diet less kibble or greens will make maintaining weight a little more difficult. On straight RAW you will see a little more swing in the weight AM to PM to AM. For no better analogy the raw is a one pass, great assimilation and out. Leaving the gut, stomach and tract close to empty. In turn the dog will shiver its own bodyweight in the night.
Even if you up the raw food amount they will do a great job of assimilating.

The greens and/or kibble will, for lack of a better analogy, will hang around a little longer. So during the night the dog will continue to digest. Providing body warmth in the cold.

The end result is basically the same, the dog will empty in the morning, the raw dog will have a smaller turd and the green/kibble will be a bigger turd.

And with all that said, the next guy will go a different route and that way will be the 'right way'.

EWO

CYJ,

I've never once thought you were steering anyone wrong in your advice. You may think your information is "outdated" I see it as you must have been before your time with feed and vitamin knowledge.

S_B

[EWO]

The RF-1 will be sufficient. The lixotonic is good but I have only used it a couple of times. I'm not sold, but can't say it is good or bad. I would say 'with moderation'.

Any dog food with the protein source as fish will be suspect. It is a high density protein and although good for the dog it takes a lot of energy to convert it to fuel/used for recovery. I have seen several dogs run hot when the fish based protein was added during hard work. The chicken and chicken fat is much more easily assimilated by the dog.

Gets into the Kreb's cycle and all that science stuff. LOL. But every protein is not the same. Just like all fats are not the same. A fish oil fat is a lot different than chicken fat and/or beef fat.

The thing about horse stuff it is based on a 1000-1200 pound horse. With powders it can be really hard to break it down to a 40lb dog and still be accurate. Most are successful when they are used every third day and if one misses it will be missing a little light.

One thing about RF-1 and Lixotonic and Red Cell is it helps if the bloodwork is checked before, during and at the end of the keep. Most do not have that option. An old school way is to watch the piss. It should be mostly clear. If the supplements are ramped up and the urine darkens, it is more of a load on the body to discharge than any help being given. Lighten up on the additives.

EWO

Thanks Sir. But my questions were : since I'm using RF-1 do I need I still need the horse muscle fortifier & MSM & since I'm using Lixotinic do I still need the greens? She is eating Orien 6 fish but Im going to wean her to all raw (chicken backs & beef fat).

[brokeback]

Some great posts as well, EWO.

[CYJ]

Ditto EWO on the fish meat. I gave that a whirl one time. Bought a heavy duty grinder and boxes of frozen fish. Forget the name of the fish used, was a cold water type fish and oily. Had no longer fed my dog about two weeks on this fish. Dog's coat got dull, hair brittle/ urine turned to a orange color and even stained the ground.

Seemed every fly in my area wanted to land on this dog. LOL Needless to say I quit the fish route real quick and never used another fish anything on my dogs. Salmon etc. might work up in Alaska, not in S.C. Those dog sledders on the Below Zero TV series still use Kibble dog food along with the fish they catch and dry out.

Just got off the phone with V.J. Had a good chat and he enjoyed talking with your friends awhile back. Another good article to read, about a known dog man's view of conditioning. Is Don Carter's article off the Game Dog History internet site. Title is " Was Your Dog Overworked?".

For me I had the best success with a AM and PM hand walking along with round table work. Alternated days with work on a overhead cable for the anerobic type exercise. Would love to see a dog built up to where it can recover in a anerobic state back to a aerobic state while pulling a certain amount of weight. Some things have to be observed first hand. Trying to write out everything is almost a moot point. Hands on learning is always the best way.

I use to think the way Boxers goes through their conditioning routines and the fight. Was closer to how our dogs are conditioned and shown. That was until I started watching ground and pound cage fighters. Talking with EWO on that subject. This appears to be the more correct and better over all type work plan. The ability to recover and push through in a anerobic state back to a aerobic state. Even then sooner or later that Fat Lady is going to sing for some one. Cheers

[BSK]

Hey guys the gyp is taking her keep well. But every time I add more than a tablespoon of chicken fat to her feed she vomits. The RF-1 is 32% fat so I guess she doesn't need any more. Some people that use RF-1 don't add anything else to the feed. What are your thoughts?

[EWO]

I'm a bigger fan of natural fats than fats out of a bottle or a gel-cap. With that said, it is all about what works for the particular dog you are working at the time.

Two things, usually if the fat goes over the teetering point for that particular dog doing said amount of work then the stool usually loosens up to the point they can pretty much shit thru screen wire.

Second thing is lots of times the dog will run hot. Not so much as the fat is causing it but more so too much fat and not enough protein the dog will not properly recover from day to day and even week to week.

If the dog is doing well with whatever it is you are doing, by all means stick to what is working. I do not know if I have ever seen a dog vomit because of chicken fat but I guess it happens. And it may be the reaction with something else more so than the chicken fat alone.

Best of luck.

EWO

[BSK]

Thanks for the response.

[EWO]

No problem. Keep us posted. Always something out there to learn. Most of the time the "next great thing" is stumbled upon by happen chance. Your particular combination may knock out of the park.

If something is working in a keep do not change it for the something "new and shiny". Practice and try things when your money or the dogs well being can be lost.

Don't give the other guy any more ammunition than he already has.

EWO

[BSK]

Right thanks again

[EWO]

Not that I pursue an illegal activity but I heard about a good one last night.

Guy who had not owned a dog much less did a dog since the 70's came out of retirement for his grandson. He built an old school carpet mill with stationery PVC pipe, heavy backed carpet sliding on sanded plywood. The dogs primary diet was chicken necks and soaked dog food, cheap dog food at that. He was supplemented with Bee Pollen, natural honey an hour before every work day and clovite horse conditioner. He was worked every work day on the carpet mill followed by a semi-long walk, followed by a semi-long walk dragging 25% of his body weight. Cooled, rubbed down and fed. The dog stayed outside in his normal barrel.

61 minutes. An incredible pace, plenty strong. Plenty more gas if it had been needed.

I won't post any names as I am sure it will pop up on the boards this morning. The kid had phones blowing up all over the world with is first W.

He said, what do I do? I forwarded him a message, "Sell the dog and quit now. You are ahead!"

EWO