Who is Hughes and Holcomb?

[Frank43]

I don’t know why but I have always been interested in that subfamily. There’s a balance between outcrossing and inbreeding. Maintaining vigor. Crews maintained that line a long time. Very skillful breeding to me. For some reason people like Colby that maintain good lines of dogs for long periods of time interest me

[Frank43]

Ewo. I hear you some on the Cottingham Sheba side. She did produce some good dogs. People don’t like tight bred dogs. Sometimes they are worth the risk. This dog is tight bred. I really like him. He is smaller from being triple bred,but he is stronger that his father. I think more dog even though he is tighter. He is structurally sound. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=86638. If dusty 2 was tight bred right. Not just inbred but really inbred and selected. He had some prepotency stored. Chop and gameness. Sheba was a cold dog from what they say. I have my theories on truly cold dogs. Both sides probably contributed equally.

[CYJ]

Frank43. How about the dogs off of Brook's Apache? Lot of good well-bred dogs there. I found all of this dog Apache's ancestors and added them to your pedigree. Ken Allen was a top competitor in his day. He may have passed; I am not sure though.

What is missing in the pedigree, is Ken Allen's Fang's sire and Ken Allen's Goldie's sire. Anyone on here that were familiar of Ken's breeding's and the sire of these two dogs mentioned. Let me know and I will add and finish out this pedigree. The Shady Hill's Devil Zack and Dann's Billy appear to be one and the same dog. I went with the one that had a picture of this dog. Pedigrees were the same. Cheers

[Frank43]

I am interested in those too. The triple ott and yellow John dogs. My other question was about the ways some people approach breeding and culling dogs. That's why I asked does it take all that. I'm not stupid or unable to accept some don't maybe it. My way was start with hopefully good dogs then asses what is missing or needs improving. If possible find it in something related. Inbreed on ones I wanted to fix traits. Line breed etc. my point is. I think some people do random best to best breedings then end up with litters of junk. Does it take all that. I recently did a breeding i think could be a corner stone of a family. I'm building up to it sequentially.

So now I have this guy and a sister. One is sold.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=91581

They are pups but the little male feels stout to me. I call him monster. I'm excited. The out hopefully gives room to back cross to other dogs in his history.

[CYJ]

Frank43, EWO gave you the right answer. The real question you have to ask yourself. Are you in the dog game to participate and breed dogs from your own winning dogs. Ones you have bred, that you have used. Are just to sell pups off their nice pedigrees. Tell buyers how much prey drive they have when chasing a ball or grabbing big ropes etc. hanging from trees. Shutz hound or show dog wins.

Grady Cummings was one of the tops for selling these dogs to anyone and everybody. He made his name off Boudreaux. He got various Boudreaux dogs and bitches from various dog men. He had about twenty brood pens and females along with about four or five stud dogs. He sold dogs around the world. I saw his so called four-time winner Dutch Boy many times. He never said Dutch Boy was a four-time winner. I started seeing that on the on lines pedigree site etc. Not questioning the dog's pedigree but saw no marks on the dog anywhere. Just a pretty white-headed brindle marked dog.

Only way a deep game no talent dog could win in today's real competition is to be big boned, long bodied, could be pulled tight and showed in July and August weather with high humidity where I live. K. Marlowe got some dogmen from the mountains to come to her back yard at that time of the year. She won due to knowing they were bringing barn stormers. Saw some of those dogs they were gasping for air before their show started. LOL

How do you think Don Mayfield whipped Bully Son. Got Bobby Hall to show Bully Son in that desert dry/dead heat of Texas. Bully Son had other factors against it as well before the show started. Tombstone weathered the early storm and won.

Said all this to say this. You are the manager of your dogs like a fight manager is of his team of Boxers. He knows what each fighter is capable of. The manager would know nothing of their boxing talents if he just let them play soccer or punt footballs and run up and down a basketball court. He would have to properly train them for their type of sport and to set up matches of comparable like competition. You are right back to the A, B, C, fighter. Yet sometimes in the dog game a B or C dog may be sacrificed to an A or B dog if the odds and money are in that managers favor. Just the nature of many men.

When it comes to very deep game dogs with no talent. One could consider a female for brood. Since the old timers believed that most of the gameness came from the female side. Bitch dog would still need to be big boned well put together and a calm dog. Cheers

[Frank43]

I don’t believe in puppy peddling. I don’t know the best way to put dogs all the way out there. There are people that test and breed or run in limited circles. Patrick ran a line for years. I don’t know if I ever want to sell that many dogs. I want to form a family of dogs that are game, structurally sound, strong. I like certain styles. generally go forward, take a hold and work. Close the show when the opportunity presents. I have some studs I like. My Chris Kyle dog, abner and another. they are made how I like. Trustworthy and work hard. I think monster mash will hopefully be one of those. His mother is probably the best female I bred. Quiet and smart and can send you to see elizabeth. I’m hoping the George dog throws the things that made ch. bullet. If that combines with hanna it should be something.

For some reason it always bothers me when people are bragging about how many dogs they cull. There’s a voice in my head that says you can’t breed worth a shit. I have one dog that is not super talented. Any there has been an accident she has been the hardest to get out a hold and always ready to go back. She isn’t a phenom. She’s the type I would bet would put pressure and wear one down. After 20-30 minutes she’s getting stronger. I hear you. It’s something to think about. The two dogs I got from Crews should help. I bought one and paid stud fee for one and may try to get another. I guess there is this dog in my head I am chasing trying to create.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=23387

Like him with bt brains

[EWO]

I can agree with you on the bragging about culling dogs. My opinion is that if you go in search of curs, they are really easy to find. I think they will all quit. I also believe dead game dogs just die before they see enough to quit.

I also think so many curs were game dogs if given the right opportunity or better said, landed in the right place.

Forever I was in the camp of there is only one way to know if you own a game dog. Maybe I have softened later in life, I don't know. I watched an APBT/American Bulldog cross get gutted by a hog. As the old folks say, 'from asshole to appetite'. The cut started just under the chin and went damn near to her cootchie. She rolled over and I thought she was dead or would be shortly. In the bloody mess she slipped out the owner's hand and went after the hog as fast as she did prior to being cut. She took caught and the it was a blood batch. After this I knew she would die. These guys provided after care like nothing I had ever seen, all on the tailgate of a truck. I still thought she would die. When they pulled her off the tailgate the bitch popped the lead when she seen where the hog was caged, actually busting some staples. I would consider that bitch game. In my early, probably not so much.

Me personally, I never really game checked many dogs. I was sort of schooled by old guys and was lucky enough not to ruin a lot of dogs learning. I learned to roll tired dogs. I would run a dog on a mill til he was just about spent and then take him to the barn with a fresh one waiting. Similar to believing they will all quit, I also believe when they do quit it is from fatigue and frustration and the thought of not being able to get it done. Those things visit upon a tired dog sooner than on a fresh dog. I was never able to brag about rolling dogs for hours on end. If the tired dogs did things I liked in a couple three rolls that lasted 20 minutes or so, I then rolled the dice. I was betting on what I thought I was seeing. From there his game check and his first match were one in the same.

With the shorter rolls the dog does not get beat up as bad and can be rolled again in a shorter period of time. And if he proves himself in that first match all is well. The bonus is that he didn't get beat up for nothing in a game check.

After that babbling, those tired short rolls showed traits and I in turn bet on those traits.

That was the plan I was taught and that is the way I did things for a long time. The missing variable is that I never bred many dogs. The guys that taught me about dogs never bred many dogs. All three of us look back and wished we had bred this one and that one. Some of those were actually culled because they could not win.

When I was like 9-10-11 years old I can remember looking up at the old guys and the highest praises always landed on the dogs that won and the guy that worked him. I just don't remember the breeders getting a lot of love. I fell in love with winners and conditioning.

EWO

[Frank43]

I hear you. Breeders don’t get a lot. I don’t think there are a lot of people that can consistently build a family that produces well. I think it’s a rare skill. they have to understand the box. Stp as good as he was in the box he stuck some dogs but never really had a line that I saw. Just dogs from this breeder and that breeder that he put together. I think you need it all. If I could have it like I wanted. It would be to roll my own pies. And show my own dogs. I’m not in a situation where I really the situation around me. If that changes one day where I find people with things to lose and common sense to keep things low that may change. I think I will breed a litter or two a year with some breeding goal and find some people to sell to like a closed loop. I don’t want my dogs in a lot of hands. I don’t know why there isn’t more mutual respect.

[CYJ]

EWO, excellent remarks on the schooling etc. When I had all those books years back. I read somewhere maybe the Armitage book about a walking pre keep getting fat off dog first. Then get the dog tired and take a look at the dog in the schooling. I did it very similar to that. I even had a bitch, a Green Bay Packer line back that had no teeth. That would slam em and gum um, was easy to break her off. LOL

Earl Tudor did not believe in schooling the life out of a dog to test for gaminess. I saw dogs in schooling go through something that was more severe than a show. Turn around next month and do it again to the dog. When the dog was finally shown. Quit because there was nothing left in the dog. I to believe there is a stopping point for any of them.

How a dog is fed from the time it is conceived in the brood bitch till two years old and kept in good health plays an important factor to winning. My brother was an excellent Game Cocker. He had Field Marsh Butchers not really sure about the name breed. Took excellent care of all his Chickens. Got a simple conditioning keep from R. Morris. He won way more than he lost.

You are right on about breeders getting little recognition. Many times, good dog men get certain dogs and do not wish to let anyone know where they got their dogs. Some forty years now, my strain of dogs is still out there, and some are still showing well. Way things are now. Not to wise to want any recognition on anything. Cheers

[CYJ]

Frank43, I knew Crews, he had some good to great dogs along with partner Tant. No doubt you take good care of your dogs. From their breeding, some should turn out well. Cheers