The X Factor

[MinuteMan]

I'm sorry Bojac, I should have been more specific.

I'm not saying there is no merrit to the "x factor" I was more focusing on Stone City's diagrams and statements saying that Mayday recieved no influence from Miss Jocko and the like. If his staement had been, Mayday recieved no SEX linked characteristics, well that's a whole new ball game.

What you posted above states that the X and Y chromosome THEMSELVES are resistant to recombination, which makes sense, as certain traits are REQUIRED for each sex. It also makes sense then, that there ARE sex linked traits. Yet, everyone seems to be forgetting the 38 other chromosomes passed down from each parent.

I think the post above by stone city that speaks of the horses shows how the "x factor" "COULD" come in handy. IE, Horse researchers have shown that the large heart is directly linked to the X chromosome. I know of no such sex linked traits in our dogs, although I would love to see some examples, and with the discovery of such you could use the "x factor" as valuable breeding tool.

[Bojacc357]

Do you see what you confused Minuteman. The Y chromosome itself is single and only has identical genes to repare itself so nothing changes. The recombination you speak of in meiosis is the X and Y joining and which genes actually combine and are dominant. Even at this state they only join at the tip cause if they recombined completely the y chromosome would overtake the X and make all male sex. Here is another article explain how the Y chromosome links all males back.

The decay of the Y has to do with nature barring the Y chromosome from recombining (forming new genetic combinations) with the X, except for at the tips. If not for this, the male-determining gene on the Y chromosome would sneak into the X, making everyone male. In the mid 1990’s The Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research in Cambridge, MA and Washington University’s Genome Institute began a collaboration to sequence the human Y chromosome. This historic sequence and analysis was published in 2003, representing the first and only Y chromosome (from any species) to be sequenced.

Because the Y chromosome changes relatively slowly over time and is only passed along the direct male line, it may be used to trace paternal lineage. It was also found that the Y chromosome contains genes which are implicated in cancer, Turners syndrome, stress response, high blood pressure, graft rejection and harbors many genes essential for male fertility.

[Bojacc357]

The other 38 don't control sex, reproduction, mental function, and part of the skeletal genetics as the X chromosome. The Y chromosome is maintainly tied to fertility. The other chromosomes called autosomes link the brain to cells, control color, appearance of physical features, and

they aid in the growth and repairing of cells. Simple as that.
by SIPHO P. KUNENE

[MinuteMan]

Your Correct. My mistake.

I should have thought my response out better as I typed it. The Y Chromosome ITSELF will be pretty much the same one passed down, as the Y is resistant to recombination. Yet it is not immune to it.

YET, the male will be passing 38 OTHER chromosomes which HAVE been recombined. I was thinking of these 38 other chromosomes as I typed, yet only spoke of the Y originally.

So my original point was, (now stated correctly) Mayday will STILL have 38 other chromosomes with links to Miss Jocko

[MinuteMan]

The other 38 don't control sex, reproduction, mental function, and part of the skeletal genetics as the X chromosome. The Y chromosome is maintainly tied to fertility. The other chromosomes called autosomes link the brain to cells, control color, appearance of physical features, and

they aid in the growth and repairing of cells. Simple as that.
by SIPHO P. KUNENE

Yet are we not interested in passing all of those things down? Are those traits (brain function and physical features) not VITAL to the success of a performance dog, and actually what we base our choices of selection on?

[Bojacc357]

Exactly Minuteman, just not with the sex linked trait mental function or behavior, skeleton, sex, and reproduction. Only in appearance, recovery and durability do to growth and repair of cells being linked to autosomes. Not so much instinctive nature basically which is what most breed and think of getting looking at individuals in peds. It all comes back to where they are aligned in a ped and the sires granddam on his sires side has no input. She's does carry a Y chromosome so she want effect males and only the mate of a male and his mothers X which she passed him effect his daughters. This leaves the great grandmother on the sire topside 1/8th out as far as sex linked traits go. These Below are Y Chromosome sex linked traits I was able to find.

SHOX
SRY
USP9Y


What is the official name of the SHOX gene?
The official name of this gene is “short stature homeobox.”
SHOX is the gene's official symbol. The SHOX gene is also known by other names, listed below.
Read more about gene names and symbols on the About page.
What is the normal function of the SHOX gene?
The SHOX gene provides instructions for making a protein that regulates the activity of other genes. On the basis of this role, the SHOX protein is called a transcription factor. The SHOX gene is part of a large family of homeobox genes, which act during early embryonic development to control the formation of many body structures. Specifically, the SHOX gene is essential for the development of the skeleton. It plays a particularly important role in the growth and maturation of bones in the arms and legs.
One copy of the SHOX gene is located on each of the sex chromosomes (the X and Y chromosomes) in an area called the pseudoautosomal region. Although many genes are unique to either the X or Y chromosome, genes in the pseudoautosomal region are present on both chromosomes. As a result, both females (who have two X chromosomes) and males (who have one X and one Y chromosome) have two functional copies of the SHOX gene in each cell.

What is the official name of the SRY gene?
The official name of this gene is “sex determining region Y.”
SRY is the gene's official symbol. The SRY gene is also known by other names, listed below.
Read more about gene names and symbols on the About page.
What is the normal function of the SRY gene?
The SRY gene provides instructions for making a transcription factor called the sex-determining region Y protein. A transcription factor is a protein that attaches (binds) to specific regions of DNA and helps control the activity of particular genes. The sex-determining region Y protein causes a fetus to develop as a male.
People normally have 46 chromosomes in each cell. Two of the 46 chromosomes, known as X and Y, are called sex chromosomes because they help determine whether a person will develop male or female sex characteristics. Females have two X chromosomes (46,XX), and males have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome (46,XY). The SRY gene is located on the Y chromosome.

What is the official name of the USP9Y gene?
The official name of this gene is “ubiquitin specific peptidase 9, Y-linked.”
USP9Y is the gene's official symbol. The USP9Y gene is also known by other names, listed below.
Read more about gene names and symbols on the About page.
What is the normal function of the USP9Y gene?
The USP9Y gene provides instructions for making a protein called ubiquitin-specific protease 9. This gene is found on the Y chromosome. People normally have 46 chromosomes in each cell. Two of the 46 chromosomes are sex chromosomes, called X and Y. Females have two X chromosomes (46,XX), and males have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome (46,XY).
Because it is located on the Y chromosome, the USP9Y gene is present only in males. It occurs in a region of the Y chromosome called azoospermia factor A (AZFA). Azoospermia is the absence of sperm cells. The USP9Y gene is believed to be involved in sperm cell development, but its specific function is not well understood.

[Bojacc357]

The other 38 don't control sex, reproduction, mental function, and part of the skeletal genetics as the X chromosome. The Y chromosome is maintainly tied to fertility. The other chromosomes called autosomes link the brain to cells, control color, appearance of physical features, and

they aid in the growth and repairing of cells. Simple as that.
by SIPHO P. KUNENE

Yet are we not interested in passing all of those things down? Are those traits (brain function and physical features) not VITAL to the success of a performance dog, and actually what we base our choices of selection on?

It all ties in but the most precise we can get genetically is following the X and Y chromosomes. The reality is focusing on quality. To many skip this and say the genetics are there when the quality shows genetics. And yes I see how the skeletal, mental function(intelligence and will or gameness), reproduce, and sex that are sex linked genes go hand and hand with the autosomes of all ancestors passed. Speed in response of brains to cells are important but the outward response is only as fast as they are built to respond. You definitely can't take one without the other. One is still a better starting point in performing dogs.

[Officially Retired]

Thanks for cleaning up a couple things which were exactly what I meant. Solid individuals in a family most def. Small yard means culling is a must for me to move on in selection and many others. Not in a barberian way. Just for need of the chainspots. Culling is simply removing them from the program.

Okay, good deal.

I understand limited space = limited space, and the need to keep dog numbers down. The point I was making was that you can "remove a dog from the program" simply by selecting a better dog to breed to. In other words, if a Dog X isn't what I want in a dog, but the one behind him (Dog A) is everything I want in a dog, whether or not I "cull" Dog X has no relevance to a program, but breeding to Dog A does ... and I can choose to breed to Dog A whether or not Dog X is there or not 8-)

The 1/8th grandmother if you notice does lend a X chromosome to male are female offspring in the X Factor. That would be the sire granddam on his sires side. She does however lend autosomal DNA which brings genes for appearances, color, and othe physical features. Her alignment doesn't let her effect sex, reproduction, mental function, and part of the skeletal structure as those are left to the X Chromosome. Only the Y generation to generation is passed in males which leaves her out. Then in females only the sires dam X is passed alone with his mates to make XX.

Well, there was a statement made that the great-great grandfather (or mother) would have "no effect" on the dog in question, and I responded by "it may or it may not." I think if you look at the thread on Avila's Ouch!, if you follow his pedigree you can clearly see that Ouch! got his chocolate coloring from an unbroken string of chocolate/seal dogs in his pedigree ... all the way back to his great-great granddam Jessop's Pitfall.

I believe what Minute Man said is correct, namely that there isn't some progressive "diminishing" of an ancestor's influence; rather, I believe that the genes either pass/dominate to an offspring, or pass/recess to an offspring/or are LOST in an offspring. In other words, Ouch and Silverback aren't "watered-down" chocolate- and seal-colored dogs, respectively, they simply ARE chocolate- and seal-colored dogs respectively. This chocolate color trait either passes dominantly, or it does not pass. The red/rednose trait either passes dominantly, passes recessively, or it does not pass. The genes from both parents re-combine and are either THERE or are NOT there ... there is no "diminishing" going on with each successive generation.

And so it is with other traits, like being a head dog or a finisher. The propensity to be a head dog, or a true finisher, is either THERE and passed on, or it is NOT there and failed to pass-on (or, possibly, is there but is recessive). With Silverback, no dog I know of in his pedigree was a "true finisher" like he is, until you get back to the Ted Jessop blood. I promise you this desire to finish is not "diminished" in Silverback, after all these generations, it is simply THERE in him ... and like no ancestor I personally am aware of (which is a lot of them) until that pedigree point.

Thus I simply reject the idea that all traits "diminish by 50%" with each successive generation; I believe they are either passed on or they are not (albeit, sometimes passed on, yet remain recessive).

Also the mitochondria DNA and Y and X skeletal genes would be what allows ability. This is in the since of with form comes function and also the X chromosome gives mental function. With the mitochondria DNA helping build muscle building proteins most compatible with structure as part of its inner workings with the cells. Since autosomes allow the brain to connect with cells I can see your point.

Exactly, if the mental ability to "be quick and smart" isn't there, then you simply have a well-formed animal without the right control center. There are plenty of conformationally-flawless ADBA show champions ... that couldn't whip a puppy and would quit cold if they broke a nail in the carpet ... and there are plenty of undershot, cow-hocked animals that are multi-winners (Untouchable's Gr Ch Chewy comes to mind )

Still if it doesn't have the form how can it perform it limits abilities. I guess you are looking at the ability to do anything with helping cells and brain communicate and I myself am thinking of talent and other aspects of ability as in fluent motion. Atleast this is what I gathered.

It is my absolute conviction that talent starts in the brain, which controls speed, timing, reflexes, judgment, etc. Stormbringer, for example, was oddly-built ... and didn't have the body of Duke Nukem (who won the ADBA Nationals) ... but Stormy had 10x the pit-savvy, power, and desire to finish that Duke Nukem did. Duke even had the superior-conformed, long-winded Screamer for a mother, while Stormy had the stubby, short-winded Coca Cola for a mother.

The X Factors main focus is inheritable material genes wise on the X and Y chromosomes and the larger X has more inheritable material. I still think more needs to be none bout what inheritable material the Y Chromosome does posess.

I agree that more needs to be known, rather than theorized, but I do think it is fascinating to discuss 8-)

I won't sit here and try to pretend that I understand all of this stuff. However, I do see the value in attempting to do so!

I don't want to be stubborn, but my own experience leads me to believe that what MM originally said is true, meaning that (of the important outward performance traits) these are a combining of the male and female, where there is either a "mix" or where one dominates while the other does not. Again, I re-confirm my belief that the greatest value that my exposure to The X Factor has given me is the concept that mtDNA is matriarchal. This would explain the wide disparity of results that have been obtained through some of my poorly-structured bitches. Yet, even here, some short-winded bitches can produce longwinded pups, either by throwing what's "behind them" (recessive) or by having the male's influence dominate. (It's hard to say which!)

For example, my own Diamond Girl bitch had terrible body structure. She was cow-hocked, under-shot, and barrel-chested. The only good thing about her was 1) her pedigree was full of game dogs, and 2) the fact Diamond Girl was herself absolutely GAME TO THE BONE (although it took her till 3 years to get it straight). I bred DG back to Poncho, and got a bunch of game dogs that were better-structured than Diamond Girl, but likewise had bad ass-ends. I did the same thing with Phoenix and got the same thing again: game dogs with better structure than DG, but that weren't as athletic as I like my dogs to be. Therefore, even though she was a game bitch, I sold Diamond Girl because I did not want to inbreed on these physical traits ... I thought she would produce better as a cross-dog ... and, ironically to this discussion, Diamond Girl's new owner actually bred her to Stone City's own Ch Nico Jr.

Well, this breeding produced Slingshot Kennels' Ch Buster 4xW, who looked nothing like Diamond Girl and did not carry her physique at all. Now then, maybe this proves Stone City's theory that the Y chromosome of Nico dominated, and so the male's traits obtained, but I have had plenty of my bitches inherit 100% of their daddy's looks and style, even though they were bitches. Further, if all the skeletal formation was X-(bitch-)dependent, then Ch Buster should not have been built that way.

Thus, in the end, while this is absolutely fascinating stuff, I don't think everything is cut-and-dry at all about which side influences what in a performance dog :?

Cheers,

Jack

[StoneCity]

Jack,

You should have called me before selling Diamond Girl. :P


Actually, I would have done a repeat breeding or breed a female of that cross back to Nico Jr and another one back to Poncho.

[Officially Retired]

Jack,
You should have called me before selling Diamond Girl. :P

Ah yes, the benefits of hindsight 8-)

Actually, I would have done a repeat breeding or breed a female of that cross back to Nico Jr and another one back to Poncho.

Well, maybe we'll have to get together at some point and hook their descendants together ... as a matter of fact, the two half-sisters I just finished breeding to Silverback (Little D and Dirty Hammer) are both daughters of Diamond Girl's game daughter Dirty Diamond. In both cases, I bred the highly-inbred Dirty Diamond to super-athletic segments of my family (Rocko and Silverback), in an attempt to increase the ability, while losing none of the genetic prepotency.

I think it's pretty clear that your own family of dogs retains its consistent prepotency as well or better as any family alive, so there is no reason we couldn't re-create another dog like Ch Buster or better if we hooked a couple together. As a matter of fact, the only two times my bitches were bred to Nico Jr., Champions were produced in both litters, so it's something to think about anyway :ugeek:

Jack