E MILL KEEPS

[Crofab]

I agree in that an emill isn't building any type of strength. The act of running, whether it's on a jenny or a mill, is still the same act of running. It is definitely different in what it accomplishes with each tool, but the act is just the same. As a runner, I can attest to the differences in running on a stationary treadmill as opposed to running on trails throughout acreage or on a track. I can also tell the difference in dogs when running a treadmill as opposed to running a jenny or something along those lines.

I personally would never suggest using just one tool to get a dog in shape. I have used just one tool to do so over the years just for my own satisfaction to see if it could be done successfully. In that regard, most all of them can be used singularly and still have the animal come out a winner.

I think that any way of conditioning a dog can be labeled as the "lazy man's" way as the man isn't doing any work aside from keeping an eye on his charge to make sure all goes smoothly. The man isn't doing any of the strenuous work that his animal is performing. I personally believe that whatever the dog does the best is the optimal way to condition the animal. Regardless of my own personal feelings, if a dog will not work a jenny but will work a mill like a madman, then the mill is the optimal way for that particular animal. I personally feel that the flirtpole, jenny, and another contraption I use are the best ways to condition a dog. Unfortunately for me, not all of my dogs share the same mindset.

[southend]

I agree in that an emill isn't building any type of strength. The act of running, whether it's on a jenny or a mill, is still the same act of running. It is definitely different in what it accomplishes with each tool, but the act is just the same. As a runner, I can attest to the differences in running on a stationary treadmill as opposed to running on trails throughout acreage or on a track. I can also tell the difference in dogs when running a treadmill as opposed to running a jenny or something along those lines.

I personally would never suggest using just one tool to get a dog in shape. I have used just one tool to do so over the years just for my own satisfaction to see if it could be done successfully. In that regard, most all of them can be used singularly and still have the animal come out a winner.

I think that any way of conditioning a dog can be labeled as the "lazy man's" way as the man isn't doing any work aside from keeping an eye on his charge to make sure all goes smoothly. The man isn't doing any of the strenuous work that his animal is performing. I personally believe that whatever the dog does the best is the optimal way to condition the animal. Regardless of my own personal feelings, if a dog will not work a jenny but will work a mill like a madman, then the mill is the optimal way for that particular animal. I personally feel that the flirtpole, jenny, and another contraption I use are the best ways to condition a dog. Unfortunately for me, not all of my dogs share the same mindset.

Good post i dont supose you,d like to share what your other contraption is

[Officially Retired]

I agree in that an emill isn't building any type of strength. The act of running, whether it's on a jenny or a mill, is still the same act of running. It is definitely different in what it accomplishes with each tool, but the act is just the same.

Not so. By the very admission that an emill "isn't building muscle," and that actual running is "definitely different" in what it accomplishes, you are thereby admitting they are not "the same."

Your error here is in confusing "moving your legs" with actually running. With an emill, you're just "moving your legs" while a belt is moving underneath you. By contrast, out in the hills you are actually running, which means propelling your whole body forward against the inertia of gravity. This absolute difference in what is actually happening between the two exercises is precisely why true running is ultimately superior to emilling.

As a runner, I can attest to the differences in running on a stationary treadmill as opposed to running on trails throughout acreage or on a track. I can also tell the difference in dogs when running a treadmill as opposed to running a jenny or something along those lines.

If you can tell "the difference," then basic logic holds that they are, in fact, not the same

I personally would never suggest using just one tool to get a dog in shape. I have used just one tool to do so over the years just for my own satisfaction to see if it could be done successfully. In that regard, most all of them can be used singularly and still have the animal come out a winner.

Neither would I. But because dogs can "come out winners" placed under a wide variety of keeps, what this shows is that there are other factors to winning than "what keep" the dog is placed on ... the most important of which is what dog is being used, and at what weight?

I think that any way of conditioning a dog can be labeled as the "lazy man's" way as the man isn't doing any work aside from keeping an eye on his charge to make sure all goes smoothly. The man isn't doing any of the strenuous work that his animal is performing.

That is not true. Bicycling a dog, or weight pulling a dog, involves human effort and constant attention. Even flirtpoling and ATVing a dog require more effort than putting a dog on a mill and just standing there, and (what's more) they're ultimately better for the dog too.

I personally believe that whatever the dog does the best is the optimal way to condition the animal.

Disagree again. What some lazy dogs "do best" is just stand there

I do get your point though.

Regardless of my own personal feelings, if a dog will not work a jenny but will work a mill like a madman, then the mill is the optimal way for that particular animal.

This is true for that animal, but that doesn't mean the emill is the best way to condition in general ... it is just all that particular dog can be coaxed to do.

I personally feel that the flirtpole, jenny, and another contraption I use are the best ways to condition a dog. Unfortunately for me, not all of my dogs share the same mindset.

Yep. The flirtpole, the jenny, and two other contraptions are what comprise my own keep, and dogs that don't want to work these devices will be at an exercise disadvantage compared to the ones that do.

Jack

[southend]

Some great points of view from both sides ,But for some reason i feel like selling my e mill

[R2L]

Some great points of view from both sides ,But for some reason i feel like selling my e mill

But who wants to buy it Maybe some chihuahua owner. GL

[southend]

Some great points of view from both sides ,But for some reason i feel like selling my e mill

But who wants to buy it Maybe some chihuahua owner. GL

For sure in the words of homer simpson D,oh

[Crofab]

Not so. By the very admission that an emill "isn't building muscle," and that actual running is "definitely different" in what it accomplishes, you are thereby admitting they are not "the same."

Your error here is in confusing "moving your legs" with actually running. With an emill, you're just "moving your legs" while a belt is moving underneath you. By contrast, out in the hills you are actually running, which means propelling your whole body forward against the inertia of gravity. This absolute difference in what is actually happening between the two exercises is precisely why true running is ultimately superior to emilling.

Moving your legs at a slow pace is walking, while moving your legs at a fast pace is running. I'm not disputing what's best for the animal. The physical act of running is still the same whether it's on an emill, a slatmill, a carpetmill, jenny, etc. Yes, there is more work involved with some as opposed to the others. No one is disputing that fact.

Neither would I. But because dogs can "come out winners" placed under a wide variety of keeps, what this shows is that there are other factors to winning than "what keep" the dog is placed on ... the most important of which is what dog is being used, and at what weight?

Agreed. There are other variables and factors that come into play when dogs are matched as most winners are simply better than others. I believe it shows all of the things you mentioned along with the keep.

That is not true. Bicycling a dog, or weight pulling a dog, involves human effort and constant attention. Even flirtpoling and ATVing a dog require more effort than putting a dog on a mill and just standing there, and (what's more) they're ultimately better for the dog too.

In reference to weight pulling, I guess that would depend on how a person goes about doing such a task. There is no work involved in flirtpoling aside from me laughing and snickering at dogs! ATV requires effort in driving and watching the dog, neither of which is forcing the individual to do any work. Either way, it's all a "lazy man's" way of working the dog unless the man is truly working strenuously alongside the animal every step of the way.

This is true for that animal, but that doesn't mean the emill is the best way to condition in general ... it is just all that particular dog can be coaxed to do.

I never said the emill was the best way to condition in general. I was simply pointing out that the ideas revolving around emills and keeps simply aren't all the same. That, in fact, it can be used as a tool to get a dog in shape to win as opposed to just walking which is what seems to be the prevailing idea on how to use an emill for many people.

Yep. The flirtpole, the jenny, and two other contraptions are what comprise my own keep, and dogs that don't want to work these devices will be at an exercise disadvantage compared to the ones that do.

Jack

110% agreement!

[BulldogConnection]

Bulldog Connection, yes I have conditioned a dog in such a way, minus the incline.

Well thats definitely interesting. A dog working an emill at a 4.5-5mph isn't simply your run of the mill (pun not intended) hand walking exercise. Especially at an incline. Its a sharp paced trot which is honestly what most dogs spend most of their time doing on a free turning slat mill or jenny. Very rarely will one run full clip for an entire 2 hours.

Now I agree it can be the main focus of a keep if someone so wishes, ANYTHING can be the main focus of a keep if thats what the conditioner wants. My recommendation was not to make it the sole exercise in a keep however again thats anyone's prerogative as well. What works for us is a consistent trot with the incline to involve more work for the canine. When level it doesn't accomplish much more than giving a warm up and a chance to empty out.

Each apparatus has its benefits, I prefer to make use of as many as possible rather than try to make one fit all.

[Officially Retired]

Moving your legs at a slow pace is walking, while moving your legs at a fast pace is running. I'm not disputing what's best for the animal. The physical act of running is still the same whether it's on an emill, a slatmill, a carpetmill, jenny, etc. Yes, there is more work involved with some as opposed to the others. No one is disputing that fact.

Well I guess it is time to pull-out the ol' microscope again and examine the concept of running. The original concept of running had to do with going somewhere ... of (as you say) "moving your legs fast" ... but along with this effort came the reality of actually going from Point A to Point B at a fast pace. This involves propelling your full bodyweight forward over the earth against the inertia of gravity.

Treadmill "running" isn't really traveling; therefore it isn't really running. You're "moving your legs" but not like you have to do to run. I suppose it is more properly called "running in place" rather than true running (traveling). The slat mill allows "running in place" to happen when the dog moves the belt; however, when a dog is on an emill the belt moves itself ... so the dog really isn't doing much besides trying to keep his "moving legs" in pace with the moving belt. Of the two exercises, I would say the standard mill more closely replicates true running, doubly-so if the belt doesn't move too freely, but in neither case is the dog actually propelling his full bodyweight forward and traveling.

For these reasons, I think we both agree that neither one provides the overall benefit of legitimate running, which involves more overall effort at maintaining balance, thereby bringing in stabilizer muscles, coordination, etc.

Agreed. There are other variables and factors that come into play when dogs are matched as most winners are simply better than others. I believe it shows all of the things you mentioned along with the keep.

Yep.

In reference to weight pulling, I guess that would depend on how a person goes about doing such a task. There is no work involved in flirtpoling aside from me laughing and snickering at dogs! ATV requires effort in driving and watching the dog, neither of which is forcing the individual to do any work. Either way, it's all a "lazy man's" way of working the dog unless the man is truly working strenuously alongside the animal every step of the way.

Well obviously a man cannot keep pace with a dog, but that doesn't mean the man does absolutely no work at all. In peddling a bike, a man is working. By flirtpoling, sure it is fun, but it is also participation and constant attention in the work. Weightpulling is most definitely the most work (as I prescribe it), consisting of one man behind the dog controlling him and adding/removing weights ... with another running ahead of the dog baiting him with a hide/flirtpole.

All of these require much more effort and commitment than plopping a dog on an emill and setting your watch.

I never said the emill was the best way to condition in general. I was simply pointing out that the ideas revolving around emills and keeps simply aren't all the same. That, in fact, it can be used as a tool to get a dog in shape to win as opposed to just walking which is what seems to be the prevailing idea on how to use an emill for many people.

I didn't mean to imply you thought an emill was best.

However, I personally don't think it is as good as even walking a dog, provided the dog is pulling good in the harness. I guess it would depend on the line/kind of dog, but a naturally long-winded head dog will not benefit at all on an emill compared to other kinds of device.

110% agreement!

Yep.


Jack

[BulldogConnection]

Working at an incline involves more than just keeping up with belt speed or maintaining balance. There is much more effort being exerted due to having to work up hill.

As far as being a "lazy man's" way to work a dog I wouldn't go as far to call mill work or any sort of work lazy simply because it is a cheap way to discredit one persons method while touting your own. Each can be as involved and disassociated as the person wishes. Its simple to strap a dog to a jenny and just there drinking a beer while listening to music. Someone can also put a dog on an emill and stay with it giving encouragement along the way. Neither is any better than the other, different strokes.

Personally I find the emill far more effective and a much safer alternative to handwalking and no longer perform any road work aside from a bit of weight pull/chain drag.

With an emill I can get 4-10 miles of constant walking uphill out of a dog without any interruptions or risks of the animal stepping on or ingesting foreign objects, being hassled by strange animals or running into any nosey people.