Were them pure Boyles dogs..

[Officially Retired]

TFX, it takes a lot more than a difference of opinion to get me in my feelings big guy. We're just having a gentlmen's discussion; that's it. Your opinion differs from mine, but I can't argue with what you saw or experienced; no more than you can agrue about my opinion. These dogs are what they are! Most are rough, with above average mouth, although, they are also a good percentage of the ones I have, and others I've seen that are just as game as any; put in the right shape, of course. I'm not saying all of them are, but I doubt if anyone can claim that all of the dogs they bred & raised are "as dead-game as a live one can be". With the mouth that these dogs have, coupled with the drive to finish, most won't ever get their "oil" checked to see. And that suits me just fine, cause honestly, when I was active (years ago) I wasn't trying to be in there all night anyway. However, I did get pushed to the limit with a few; one being my BULL dog, who went to a 2:02 game lose against Nail'Em Down's MAGIC 2xw; but we were awarded GIS honors after completing a courtesy that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up! BULL was a son of the BAM BAM dog that Sand Pitt had years ago, bred to the old RAFFLE bitch that Maywalt had, who was bred down from a Lonzo Pratt/Howard Heinzl bloodline. Then there was our HAMMER dog, that won in 2:31 against The Deacon & Rodgers' charge; also winning GIS honors that night. HAMMER was a son of WILD BILL CODY, bred to a bitch Grave Yard Boyz got from STP. These are dogs I owned & campaigned myself (years ago). There are others that I can list that were "pushed to the limit", and still showed "true to the game". Dogs like, CH. SEEKA, CH. INDIO, CH. PUP PUP (as you mentioned Jack), GR.CH. SPARKY, CH. KING JOKER, etc., etc. And I can go on and on, but there is also a list just as long of those that quit. I have had success with them, and I wouldn't trade them for any other. These dogs will always be the foundation of my yard, however, I have, and will continue to cross into other lines that I think will add to their ability in some way. So TFX & Jack, I do respect both of you, as well as your opinions, but I still beg to differ. I like the ones that win; and if they can go in there and do it, where their gameness is never tested, than thats cool by me! Just as long as they win against first-class competition.....
Swamp

Great post, Swamp, and I feel you. You can only go by what you personally have experienced.

In a similar example to yours, I myself had all of the "experts" of my day telling me not to breed to Ch Hammer, because (they said) the dog "couldn't produce." I ignored their bad advice, and bred to Hammer anyway, and "the rest (as they say) is history." In hindsight, I have produced more winners, and bona-fide DG dogs, through my Hammer/Trinx dogs than any of the nay-sayers of my day ever have or did by following their own ideas 8-)

As with anything, the successful breeding enterprise depends on selection, and the choice one man makes in his matings will not necessarily yield the same results as the choice another man makes with his matings. Those people who told me "not" to breed to Hammer were trying to give me good advice, and I am sure they were accurately-reflecting their own experiences ... but the simple fact is "their" experiences had nothing to do with my experiences, which turned out to be as good as I could have hoped for. A lot of people attribute my breeding success to Miss Trinx, and try to downplay Hammer's influence, but I think this is an error of judgment. Because I also bred Trinx's brother Truman twice, and to Hollingsworth's Bull once, and yet I had nowhere near the quality dogs (nor the uniformity of litter) that I got by breeding Trinx to Ch Hammer. That breeding just clicked, and it clicked deeply and for real, with a trans-generational and multi-replicating authority that still exists today.

So I don't blame you for ignoring what TFX and I have said, as even though his experiences, and my experiences, are given in earnest goodwill and are true, in the end our experiences still have nothing to do with your own experiences ... using different individual dogs and different segments of the bloodline ... and which you personally have worked with. So, as a man who fully understands how different twists to a line, and different individuals used from that line, can yield vastly different results, I completely respect what you say.

Cheers,

Jack

[TFX]

Let me add to this thread something that one fellow asked me about offline. "What about the Backstreet Truez' blood?" I have heard nothing but good things about that stuff though never got the chance to work with any of it. The record of the family certainly shows them to be much more long distance type of dogs. They certainly have a Boyles base behind them, but this just goes to show how SELECTIVITY can shape a segment of a family. I personally think it is a misnomer to call the Backstreet Truez' type of dogs "Boyles Dogs" at this point in time. They have evolved into their own specific family of dogs....... and here is the key........ because the breeder was smart enough to drop anchor and actually build a family on a few key dogs with his own standards. I have called this for years the FUNNEL EFFECT. By funnelling the dogs through key individuals and line breeding on them, new standards are set and new families are created. The Brake family of dogs are not just Patrick dogs, even though they have a heavy influence of that family behind them. Evolution's dogs are not just Southern Kennels or STP dogs, they have evolved into a family of their own. I have even had people call my dogs "Boyles dogs". I can assure you that even though my dogs have some of that blood behind them, they are nothing like the kind of Boyles dogs I described in the earlier posts of this thread. Over generalizing often leads to misunderstanding one another.

[StoneCity]

I believe that in this sport there are enough facts to prove any point you want to make about any bloodline. If you want to prove a bloodline is Game, there are facts to support it, if you want to prove that same bloodline is a cur, there are facts to support it. Actually, I am certain that all bloodlines have beat every other bloodline at one point in time. Now, If we talk about percentages and probabilities, I will guarantee you that you will be surprise how low percentages are in this sport. People tend to talk about percentages, but no one keeps data records to calculate the percentage, it is more a quick mental examination and come up with a conclusion without any actual figures.

For Example: Note: All Statistics taken from Peds Online which do not represent 100% of population. Let's agree that the numbers are much higher.

Mayday - 738 offsprings

Jeep - 405 offsprings

Frisco - 1,180 (That is insane!!!)

Buck - 128

Note: Calculations based on particular individuals and not the bloodline. At the bloodline level, % are much lower.

So If we were to calculate the production of match quality dogs using just a 10% production rate, Mayday will need to produce 73.8, Jeep 40.5, Frisco 118 and Buck 12.8. Now when you put the actual figures in front of you, you realize how low the percentages are. Obviously, percentages could be lower or higher depending on what is your concept of a match quality dog and also depends on each individual experience with that particular bloodline. Maybe you get all the good ones and everybody else get the bad ones. This means you could have a 35% production rate for the dogs you own, but the overall rate is a lot lower I can guarantee you that.

Having said that, My approach to bloodlines and breeding is to make the best possible effort to get the most complete dog I can. What are the qualities I look in a complete dog:

1- Gameness - This is the core characteristic. If you don't have this, in due time the bloodline will fade out.
2- Intelligence - Needed to beat rough curs.
3- Ability and Athletic
4- Speed
5- Mouth

If I could just put 100% of all these characteristics in one bloodline and consistently reproduce it, I will be the King of the Hill. But since I know the stats are against me, I have to be very careful in my selection process. Key elements to be successful on breeding any bloodline are:

1- Clear Concept of what you are breeding for, Gameness? Hard Mouth? All of the above?
2- SELECT and BREED Only those individuals that show the characteristics you are looking for or that you need to incorporate in your line.

After all this typing, My points are:

Percentages of success on ALL bloodlines are very low.

Not all individuals withing a bloodline are created equal.

Be Selective when breeding.

It takes YEARS to develop a bloodline.

At the end of the day, we can not blame the bloodline itself but the individuals behind them making decisions.


Boyle's Dogs have had their rate of success for years, is it higher or lower than other bloodlines, we will never know until we put the figures together and compare.
Just make sure you are breeding to top individuals and your chances will improve no matter the bloodline.

[TFX]

Excellent input!

[Officially Retired]

Agreed. A truly knowledgeable and great post, from a man with a time-proven, great bloodline to back up his beliefs.

Thank you for the contribution Stone City.

[SHOWBOX]

Truly an impeccable correspondence, among true educated "GENTLEMEN". I hope to find this standard of class among more individuals located here on this forum. If so, I may have found a home. I thank you Jack.

Here is my contribution, though not a pure Boyles dog, they are what I hope to be called the truth and the future. I thank you gentlemen for such an excellent and intriguing read and may the lord continue to bless you all with your continued success and contributions.

Meshack x Ms. Luther

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=371014

Very respectfully,

SHOWBOX

[Czar]

Sometimes I think ppl put to much thought into breeding!..The word "game" means alot of different things to alot of different ppl...it's a very controversial word I must say...let me give a example...queen of hearts was a exceptional dog but mr boyles thought she was just a hard mouth cur because she bit so hard and he sold her because of that...this was truly a bad decision by RB because she became one of if not the baddest bitch in this sport!...qoh can't help she was blessed with a wicked mouth, she couldn't help that no dog could stay with her over the 38 minute mark because she was so gifted!...now heres the kicker for u!..was qoh "game"??...why hell yes!..because she out gamed all of her opp!..and she produced fairly well!..."game" will not win alone in today fastlane so u will need mouth to!...Hollingsworth wasn't a smart man from my understanding I've also heard he didn't test his dogs but they still produced good dogs!...their have been plenty of good boyles dogs that had it all!...it just like any other line of dogs, some will be good and some will not be good...the biggest factor is the man behind the dog/dogs...this is the boyles blood we like to work with where I'm from... http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... g_id=24438

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=384824

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=386840

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... g_id=88437

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=171386

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=174530

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... g_id=34034

All those dogs have represented the boyles blood to the fullest!

[SwampDweller]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=297015

She didn't bite as hard as her dam, but she could still lay ivory with the best of them. Nonetheless, she was the best I've owned, and every dog thereafter has been held to a higher standard because of how she did her thing. Extremely smart, a screamer in the corner, and just an absolute wonder to watch in action! There were some who doubted her ability, but very few who stepped up to the plate with their charge. She won her last against the CH. FOAMIE bitch in full-blow heat! I suspect thats why it took her so long to do away with the game little FOAMIE bitch. I still miss her dearly, and just thought I'd show her off again, for those who haven't heard of "The Queen Bitch Of The South"; arguably one of the best 32lbers ever! She sure did it in true bulldog fashion. Her records speaks for itself, although, there were 2 champions that turned us down (who I won't reveal), and 2 forfeits paid (from a 2xw & 1xw). Boyles' DIRTY MARY & Bell's BABY JONES at it's best!

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=405311

CUTIE PIE is the "gate-keeper" to the future of our program; one of the meanest little bitches you ever want to see, who lacks nothing! Mouth, Intensity, Drive, Finish, & Style. One of only 3 surviving pups out of her litter, and both her sire & dam are now dead. She gives a new meaning to "Big" things come in "Small" packages... Boyles blood, with a good portion of ELI, and a touch of RED BOY; can't get no closer to perfection IMO!

Swamp

[Czar]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_ id=297015

She didn't bite as hard as her dam, but she could still lay ivory with the best of them. Nonetheless, she was the best I've owned, and every dog thereafter has been held to a higher standard because of how she did her thing. Extremely smart, a screamer in the corner, and just an absolute wonder to watch in action! There were some who doubted her ability, but very few who stepped up to the plate with their charge. She won her last against the CH. FOAMIE bitch in full-blow heat! I suspect thats why it took her so long to do away with the game little FOAMIE bitch. I still miss her dearly, and just thought I'd show her off again, for those who haven't heard of "The Queen Bitch Of The South"; arguably one of the best 32lbers ever! She sure did it in true bulldog fashion. Her records speaks for itself, although, there were 2 champions that turned us down (who I won't reveal), and 2 forfeits paid (from a 2xw & 1xw). Boyles' DIRTY MARY & Bell's BABY JONES at it's best!

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=405311

CUTIE PIE is the "gate-keeper" to the future of our program; one of the meanest little bitches you ever want to see, who lacks nothing! Mouth, Intensity, Drive, Finish, & Style. One of only 3 surviving pups out of her litter, and both her sire & dam are now dead. She gives a new meaning to "Big" things come in "Small" packages... Boyles blood, with a good portion of ELI, and a touch of RED BOY; can't get no closer to perfection IMO!

Swamp

Ch pandi was truly a beast!!..one of the hardest biting bitches ever!!

[Officially Retired]

Truly an impeccable correspondence, among true educated "GENTLEMEN". I hope to find this standard of class among more individuals located here on this forum. If so, I may have found a home. I thank you Jack.
Here is my contribution, though not a pure Boyles dog, they are what I hope to be called the truth and the future. I thank you gentlemen for such an excellent and intriguing read and may the lord continue to bless you all with your continued success and contributions.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=371014
Very respectfully,
SHOWBOX

You're welcome, and I agree the participation and input from all was conducted as the way it should be, with respect, even though people had different opinions. In the end, Stone City clarified the biggest truth, which is all major lines have won/lost to other major lines, and so the key always boils down to careful selection as you proceed forward with your chosen line. In fine, proper breeding selection can create Champions with any good line, and improper breeding selection can create garbage with any otherwise good line.

I will say this, though: that statement was made that we don't have "all the true stats" on all of these different bloodlines to rate them against one another, but I would like to add that you absolutely SHOULD keep stats on your own bloodline. I can promise you, for example, that I absolutely know which are the best ways to go within my own line, by keeping careful track of the only percentages I can really know for sure, which are my own.

The man who pays attention to this can make a success of any reasonably-strong bloodline, while the man who does not can make a mess out of any reasonably-strong bloodline, and I have seen both happen plenty of times

Cheers,

Jack