redboy dogs

[Officially Retired]

I have to add my $0.02 here on the subject of these dogs. I realize that it is a popular bloodline, and I am sure it has been with good reason, but honestly I never been able to share the excitement about the Redboy dogs as so many others have. Neither as a beginner nor as a 20-year veteran.

Back when I first got in, longtime Redboy breeder Tony Robinson (of Apache and Crusher fame -- who owned Truman/Trinx' brother Bodine--as well as a couple other Hollingsworth dogs--which is why I called him) told me directly, "Jack (the Hollingsworth dogs) are even gamer than my Redboy dogs.") So I never bothered to get into them, as I didn't see any reason to demote what I had. And, over the years, everything I have personally ever seen (or heard about), when facing my own dogs, confirms my initial impression.

Believe me, I am well aware of all the great dogs that have come down from this line. I am well aware that these Redboy dogs are supposedly bred for gameness. However, I can only speak from my own experience and (I am not trying to brag, but) every single cross I have ever seen (or gone into) has quit to my stuff. Every single one, except a lone individual dog many years ago (Garrett's Spike) who died DG to Gr Ch Zukill in :48. The rest have all quit, including a daughter of Ch Bozack who quit to Zukill's sister Volcha in 2:12. (I don't know what the bottom side was of the bitch, exactly, but I believe it too was Redboy, possibly Termite / Triple-Ott Red).

This also includes my Pretty Boy dog, whose first fight was over a Jeep/Redboy mix, bred by Rockbottom and G. Long, shown by M. Pinkerton. I don't know the exact breeding, but these are all topnotch guys who are behind the "who's who" of the Jeep/Reboy cross (Long's Werdo/Pinky, etc.). Yet their dog couldn't whip Pretty Boy (who was only 16 months old at the time) and conditioned by a rank beginner. Yes, the contest went 2:42, but Pretty Boy was a mediocre dog at best (though deeply game), and this Jeep/Redboy dog finally quit to him. Again, so much for legendary gameness.

In the meantime, I have rolled into several supposedly badass "battle crosses" involving this blood. My Sun Demon dog stopped Holland's Smuggler (1xW) in :40, and U-Nhan-Rha stopped Smuggler's brother in less time. What made it more embarrassing is that Sun Demon was hog-fat coming off the chain into a conditioned dog ... and was the bottom dog all the way ... until the last :05 ... which is when Smuggler quit (the moment he got tired also and fell behind) ... while Sun Demon had been gasping for breath and was bottom dog the entire time ... and had only got to his feet for :05. Meanwhile, U-Nhan-Rha was 3 lb lighter than his opponent and kicked that dog's ass the entire time. Again, there was not a drop of "legendary gameness" that I saw (except, of course, once again from my dogs).

In other rolls, my Silverback dog absolutely decimated some sort of Redboy/L.G. battlecross (I don't remember the exact breeding, but it was clean and topnotch), as did Ms. Bobbi who decimated another Redboy/L.G. "battle cross," bred similarly. In both cases, my dogs were smaller, and in both cases these "battle crosses" had to be picked up in :12 or less, neither wanting anymore of what they were getting. So, again, it's not like there was a tit-for-tat going on, where sometimes mine lost/quit, sometimes they won ... it was mine always won, the others always quit (or were picked up looking bad).

In another actual contest that I remember clearly, my PonchoBack dog stopped another absolutely topnotch cross utilizing this blood, UWK's My Man (brother to Gr Ch Rose Red) in 2:36. Yes it went 2:36, yes both dogs were truly superior animals, but yes again the Redboy-mix QUIT to my dog. The only absolute gameness that was displayed once again came from one of mine.

I even tried to incorporate this blood into my program, seeing how my dogs would "mix" with this blood, when I bred Cadillac III to Perfect. The result was not some new "grand slam" iconic breeding, but rather the typical mixed result that most people get when the mix dogs together. Only two pups lived: Polar Ice grew up to be a game, rough dog ... while Red Missy supposedly turned out to be a short-winded cur. I was batting 50% which is not good news IMO.

You see, when I bred that same bitch Perfect to U-Nhan-Rha, I got an all-game litter, including a Champion and a 2xW, 1xGL, and in this litter the other dogs in the litter all were fast, game, and talented. By contrast, when bred to Cadillac III, both dogs were slow and ponderous: one was slow, ponderous, but game and rough ... while the other was slow, ponderous, short-winded, and not game. As a matter of fact, one of the sons of U-Nhan-Rha/Perfect, Ch Red Bull, defeated yet another Redboy dog, a son of Ch Bear, for #2, also stopping him in under an hour.

The last battle between my stuff and the Redboy blood occurred toward the end of last year, when Prime Ape came from way back to beat some Eli/Redboy cross (where I don't know the exact breeding either), who (like the "My Man" dog that PonchoBack beat) was also devastating ... but who, ultimately, was neither fast enough, smart enough, nor game enough to hang with one of mine till the bitter end.

So, I am sorry to step on anyone's toes, but I personally just can't get excited when I see that stuff in a pedigree. To me, these dogs lower intelligence and diminish speed. They are not very bright and they're not very fast, at least not the ones I have seen, and these are two of the primary assets I personally breed for that distinguish my dogs from most other lines. To make things worse, the level of gameness that they supposedly add may be a bonus to some lines, but it is actually a demotion to the consistent level of gameness in my line. The only truly positive thing I have seen out of these dogs is they tend to throw a rather large frame, and (when crossed) they seem to throw the potential for a pretty heavy mouth. But I have never seen a single individual that I would call either very fast or very smart ... or (I hate to say it) very game. Not compared to my dogs they're not.

Maybe I have just been "unlucky" in the individuals I have seen (or that my dogs have gone into) ... but that "lack of luck" has happened too many different times, mixed-up too many different ways, for me to ever want to incorporate it in my yard (if I ever decided to breed dogs again).

I am not talking shit; I am just stating what I have directly seen or heard about from reliable sources in actual contests. I am fully aware that I have not seen them all and that there are some truly great dogs of this line, but I honestly don't think they're as high percentage as what people hope them to be. Not by a longshot.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Duly noted. I on the other hand have had remarkable success breeding the redboy jocko line into the Buck Hollingsworth line. The original macho was one of the best I ever saw, machobuck won his first at 14, third fourth and 5th within a 14 week period traveling 24 hours to NC twice. However, I did cautiously select the rbj stuff from only daisy Mae rom, and awesome baby rom. Do keep in mind as well. You had quite a bit of good dogs from the Katana Poncho cross, and I believe she had a fair amount of rbj.

[Officially Retired]

Duly noted. I on the other hand have had remarkable success breeding the redboy jocko line into the Buck Hollingsworth line.

Duly noted backatcha

It is my opinion that the Buck/Hollingsworth dogs, as well as the "magic mix" of Jocko, added something to the Redboy dogs.

In other words, the athleticism is not coming from the Redboy blood IMHO.

Some of them are absolutely beautiful dogs, but they are slow IMO and I haven't seen any pure specimens that I would consider either fast or intelligent.
(Not saying there aren't any, I just haven't seen any, and I have seen alot of them.)

The original macho was one of the best I ever saw, machobuck won his first at 14, third fourth and 5th within a 14 week period traveling 24 hours to NC twice. However, I did cautiously select the rbj stuff from only daisy Mae rom, and awesome baby rom.

Again, the Hollingsworth/Buck blood behind Macho is, IMO, a massive part of the success of that dog (along with "that magic mix" of the Jocko blood).

No one can question Gr Ch Machobuck either, who not only was a great performer and producer, but one of the most incredible-looking dogs I have ever seen as well. I mean, he was just a specimen

Pedigree-wise, however, Machobuck was 50% Buck/Hollingsworth which (again) I think is the most consistently-game blood on planet earth. There is also something to the Yellow blood, that RBJ mix in particular, which likewise was magic ... and so too with the Buck/Hollingsworth dogs added to it in particular. Daisy Mae and Awesome Baby are both great producers, no doubt, but I have never seen any of that blood, that I liked personally, unless it had a massive amount of Buck/Hollingsworth in it (as yours did).

My beef was with "pure Redboy" dogs, and other Redboy crosses in general (without the Buck/Hollingsworth influence).
They just have not impressed me, nor done well against my dogs ... this includes several rolls with some legendary dogmen ... to lots of matches, many at the absolute highest level the sport offers ... the result is invariably the same: my dogs win and those dogs quit.

But sure, if you add my favorite blood in the world to it, (Buck/Hollingsworth/my stuff) I think the gameness/athleticism/smarts goes WAY up.
Athleticism and smarts in particular.

I am also not talking giving a thumbs-down Yellow dogs, as I have seen some very badass members of this group also.
Yet, here again, the ability and power I personally attribute to the Jocko in the pedigree + the fact that it just happens to click in a special way.

It's the pure Redboy dogs (and non-Buck/Hollingsworth crosses) that unfortunately do nothing for me. Still, I am sure there are those I have not seen that I would think are, in fact, quite awesome.

Do keep in mind as well. You had quite a bit of good dogs from the Katana Poncho cross, and I believe she had a fair amount of rbj.

Good point, but again Kitana was heavy Hollingsworth, on top of which I think Yellow *did* add some desirable traits that the Hollingsworth blood lacked. Also, even though Poncho himself was not devastating, his two sisters remain the hardest-mouthed bitches I have ever bred, Missy in particular, who fractured the muzzle/skull of every bitch she got her mouth on, until the slightly-bigger Screamer broke her leg when Missy was 7 years of age and the 2-lb bigger Screamer was in her prime. So I am not altogether sure the devastating offspring was just because of Kitana.

Also, Kitana was a 52 lb chainweight bitch ... but she was picked up to another big bitch ... which Wild Red Rose later stopped (and broke her leg) spotting this bitch 4 lb of weight ...

Still, there is no question that the Poncho/Kitana breeding produced an awesome, high-percentage litter ... where every dog was game, except one ... Murder ... who still beat a 6xW and a 1xW before he quit ... and that was to some freak mouthed dog whose trick was to amputate front paws (he would shake/bite so hard when he got there). I am not ashamed of any dog that can beat a Grand Champion + another winner and who only curs to something way out of the ordinary.

So good post,

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Interesting. Yeah.. Good valid points. I've never had experience but for one. Ch. DINGO WAS A MURDEROUS hard scratching ace. Not sure if it's on here but he was off Yellow III and Low country 's Spice.. A pure rascal gyp out of pure rebel kennels stock. Similarily, Yellow II produced Ch. CRYBABY with Consuela. I really liked every dog I saw roll of Yellow II. In my opinion he was the best producing son of Yellow, but wasn't managed correctly. Frank Jacobs agreed with you. He said that the Redboy-Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit without the ability and styful finish that Jocko brought to the table. Others say the Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit if not for redboy gameness. I can agree with both. The latter statement holds true to Jeep Redboy dogs as well. But I will say. IN MY OPINION, few can boast what the redboy jocko buck hollingsworth can. 1996,2002,2003,2004 sdj Doy. .. When the judge was Jack Kelly, and reputable honest men had to vouch for the animal, and when you got a star next to the show for beating an old timer. Just my thoughts. Not to take away from the Waccamaw strain which has stood the test of time, and I am looking to incorporate with my Bull semen.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=30021

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=26308

[FrostyPaws]

.....and when you breed your dog, be it to a boomer dog or whatever else lets not forget the pups get 50% from each parent so as far as them adding or taking away from your program is bit of a twisted statement. If one doesn't think they are improving when making a breeding what's the point of making it at all?

It's not a twisted statement at all if you already know what your dogs produce on an average basis, and you can compare/contrast that with other breedings done. As for the improvement question. I do my breedings with my dogs for improvement, but I can't make the same statement about other people's bitches. I don't generally get the chance to judge someone else's female, and unfortunately, I can't look at a pedigree of a dog and decipher where the improvement could possibly come from.

[FrostyPaws]

As someone that's owned Redboy crosses through my entire life in dogs, there is a lot of truth in what Jack says. There are so many of those dogs out there being bred without any rhyme or reason, that it tends to water it all down to a lot of nothing in a lot of cases. I've seen a ton of slow, dumb Redboy and/or Redboy/Jocko dogs along with an assortment of other Redboy crosses. One of the main reasons I never bred to Hunter Red, even when knowing the owners, is that the majority of dogs I saw off Hunter, or bred from him, were JUST like him. Even when Hunter was pushed back some generations, he was so prepotent that he was able to dominate the gene pool with a small influence.

A lot of the Redboy type dogs I have owned were never slow. They weren't always the sharpest tools in the shed, and that's one of the things I've always tried to correct over the years with the breedings I do. I've finally started making some headway to having dogs that, while they're not the Einstein of the dog world, they are a lot further along than they were at points some years ago. Generally, the stupid dogs get rid of themselves when they simply run into dogs that have more sense. So I've just tried to build off dogs with more sense. They are nowhere near what the image of Bolio dogs have, but they're climbing the ladder one step at a time.

A lot of people have the misconception that Redboy dogs, as a whole, are noted for gameness. Maybe at one time some years ago, you could say that when dogs were still relatively close to that particular individual. The Redboy dogs, as a whole, are probably only second to the Eli dogs to be the most peddled and heading down the road of ruination. It's hard for a popular line of dogs to be realistically known for something, especially gameness, when it's being pulled in every single direction and whim by every jerk off that fancies themselves the next person to change the game. If you want a line of dogs to be known for something, you have to breed for that something around dogs that have that something you're looking for. I know that's a rather simplistic statement, but that's the idea.

[evolutionkennels]

As someone that's owned Redboy crosses through my entire life in dogs, there is a lot of truth in what Jack says. There are so many of those dogs out there being bred without any rhyme or reason, that it tends to water it all down to a lot of nothing in a lot of cases. I've seen a ton of slow, dumb Redboy and/or Redboy/Jocko dogs along with an assortment of other Redboy crosses. One of the main reasons I never bred to Hunter Red, even when knowing the owners, is that the majority of dogs I saw off Hunter, or bred from him, were JUST like him. Even when Hunter was pushed back some generations, he was so prepotent that he was able to dominate the gene pool with a small influence.

A lot of the Redboy type dogs I have owned were never slow. They weren't always the sharpest tools in the shed, and that's one of the things I've always tried to correct over the years with the breedings I do. I've finally started making some headway to having dogs that, while they're not the Einstein of the dog world, they are a lot further along than they were at points some years ago. Generally, the stupid dogs get rid of themselves when they simply run into dogs that have more sense. So I've just tried to build off dogs with more sense. They are nowhere near what the image of Bolio dogs have, but they're climbing the ladder one step at a time.

A lot of people have the misconception that Redboy dogs, as a whole, are noted for gameness. Maybe at one time some years ago, you could say that when dogs were still relatively close to that particular individual. The Redboy dogs, as a whole, are probably only second to the Eli dogs to be the most peddled and heading down the road of ruination. It's hard for a popular line of dogs to be realistically known for something, especially gameness, when it's being pulled in every single direction and whim by every jerk off that fancies themselves the next person to change the game. If you want a line of dogs to be known for something, you have to breed for that something around dogs that have that something you're looking for. I know that's a rather simplistic statement, but that's the idea.

Well stated

[S_B]

X 2 @ Frostypaws

[Officially Retired]

X 3

I have seen people breed dogs of my own that I would neither keep/feed nor breed to either (or, also, breed to in that direction ...).

That kind of stupidity, replicated over time, can ruin anything.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Interesting. Yeah.. Good valid points. I've never had experience but for one. Ch. DINGO WAS A MURDEROUS hard scratching ace. Not sure if it's on here but he was off Yellow III and Low country 's Spice.. A pure rascal gyp out of pure rebel kennels stock. Similarily, Yellow II produced Ch. CRYBABY with Consuela. I really liked every dog I saw roll of Yellow II. In my opinion he was the best producing son of Yellow, but wasn't managed correctly. Frank Jacobs agreed with you. He said that the Redboy-Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit without the ability and styful finish that Jocko brought to the table. Others say the Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit if not for redboy gameness. I can agree with both. The latter statement holds true to Jeep Redboy dogs as well. But I will say. IN MY OPINION, few can boast what the redboy jocko buck hollingsworth can. 1996,2002,2003,2004 sdj Doy. .. When the judge was Jack Kelly, and reputable honest men had to vouch for the animal, and when you got a star next to the show for beating an old timer. Just my thoughts. Not to take away from the Waccamaw strain which has stood the test of time, and I am looking to incorporate with my Bull semen.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=30021

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=26308

Good post too.

I personally knew the Consuela bitch and Ch Crybaby. Crybaby seemed like a really eager, game dog to me.
There was a suggestion to roll Crybaby into Stormbringer, but it never happened, which is probably a good thing for Crybaby ... I could see him being willing to take his death to Stormy, but I can't see him whipping one side of him.

Jack