Early Starter v Slow Starters

[Officially Retired]

Jack, in Ed Faron's book Pinky describes looking at WSK Rapid Roy for an hour...it says the next morning he let him go again to prove to BLEEDWATER that Roy wasn't a cur...real crazy...and hooked him shortly thereafter....

Yep. He was the classic, "I must prove to all my peers that I would never own a cur," insecurity story.

None of what he did made Rapid Roy into a world-beater.
At the end of each test Rapid Roy was still just a game, tough, somewhat-above-average dog.
Testing dogs exceptionally-hard does not turn them into aces. It does not turn them into Champions.
If anything, testing a dog super-hard (or multiple times) reduces the chance that dog can win 3 or 5 by leaving too much in the gym.

As I have met and interacted with other dogmen over the years, it has been my universal observation that the guy who wants to prove to others that "his" dog is "not a cur" is always an insecure person (and, in turn, dog butcher).

The dog always pays the price for the man's weakness (or, in Pinky's case, the 5'6" guy trying to appear 6' tall to his peers )

Jack

[bulldoghistorian]

Some 2 year olds are ready for a show, some are not even started.

Chinaman wasn't ready till he was 4.

2 years old is not a dog's prime ... ages 3-5 are a dog's prime years.

Starting a dog at 18 months to 2 years, schooling from 2-3, and matching as they approach 3 is best practice.

Jack

I am just wondering
why would anyone need a year to school a dog

[Officially Retired]

I am just wondering
why would anyone need a year to school a dog

You don't have to wait for exactly a year (nothing is set in stone here)

But the fact is, as a dog approaches 3 ... he is going to be hitting his prime.

So if you want to match a dog while he's in his prime, then you're going to have to wait till he's about 3.

Now, as far as how long the actual schooling takes, it depends on what you consider "schooled."

If you want to roll the dog once or twice, then match him, you're not schooling your dog at all ... you're just seeing if he'll fight, seeing if he has ability, and then betting on him.

If you're actually schooling the dog, this means you're going to roll him 4-5x against different-styled opponents.
You're not just dropping him in there with dogs "a couple times," then betting on him.
You're selecting opponents based on their styles, to expose the dog to different styles. This takes some time.

In truth, I think MOST dogmen don't actually school their dogs at all. They roll them a couple times "against whatever," then match them.

If you actually school the dog, it's going to mean against at least 4-5 specifically-selected opponents. And, if you give the dog 4-6 weeks to heal in between sessions, then you're talking about a 4-10 month process ... which also allows the dog to mature from between when he's first started, to develop through the schooling process, to finally be matched for real when he's in his prime.

Remember, I am talking about BEST practice, not "standard" practice

Standard practice is, bump the dog, roll him again, then shoot (match or game-check) the dog. Next!

Most people do not engage in best practice, but that doesn't mean what they do is correct or in the best interest of the dog.

I know people who will match a dog right after his first roll, if he looks good.
Sure this can be done, but the dog can hardly be called "schooled."

Most dogs (with intelligence) get progressively better, after each session, set 4-5x down, in 10-15 min sessions.
It's like sparring for 3 rounds in boxing. It's long enough to teach the dog, but not long enough to take anything out of the dog.

Jack

[MOSES]

[No Quarter Kennel]

I recently recall something that Coy Dickenson wrote regarding this. A lot of the dogs that passed through his hands were based off Carver blood and he said Mr. Carver said most of his dogs were slow starters or late starters, something like that. Coy believed Mr. Carver meant that they were slow to start working real hard in a show, and not that they turned on late. I have heard that many Aligator/Rufus dogs are slow to get going and that blood is, in-part, in-bred off Satin Lady which was supposedly Carvers Ironhead x Carvers Black Beauty.

I also agree with what Jack is saying here. If anything, I have been guilty of waiting too long - in other's opinions anyways. Too young looks just like that kid who comes up from the JV for his first Friday night football game as as sophomore. Like Bambi on ice. And what, outside of seeing what something is like, does this do for anyone?

Man, I've never heard of any athlete ever being TOO READY.

[S_B]

X2
@ No Quarter.... "Too Ready" funny, but true!

[loot]

Well said Jack

[Nut]

Dunno how its there. Here, you should be happy if U can roll into 2-3 dogs about the same size with honest people, regardless style.
Allot of times it dont even help. Dog gets owned on the head by a good head dog prospect, now ur dog knows what it is to be owned on the head. lol. Also some dogs will never change style. Not to many real intelligent dogs out there. Other side, i have seen dogs on first roll fight like a fully "schooled" dog, mixing it up and adjusting to different situations. They just have it in them.

[Officially Retired]

Well those are two different subjects: schooling properly versus the ability (resources) to school properly.

Like I said, most people roll a dog 1-2x, then match. But they are hardly matching "schooled dogs."

I agree with the fact there are "naturals" ... dogs that seem to be an ace on their first rolls.

So too, there are dumb dogs that can never improve.

However, there is also a middle ground (where most dogs fall in), which are dogs that progressively get better, and develop their styles, as they get exposed to different styles.

Poncho was a front leg/chest dog when I first rolled him ... but by his 4th roll he was on the head.

Jack

[Frank43]

Well those are two different subjects: schooling properly versus the ability (resources) to school properly.

Like I said, most people roll a dog 1-2x, then match. But they are hardly matching "schooled dogs."

I agree with the fact there are "naturals" ... dogs that seem to be an ace on their first rolls.

So too, there are dumb dogs that can never improve.

However, there is also a middle ground (where most dogs fall in), which are dogs that progressively get better, and develop their styles, as they get exposed to different styles.

Poncho was a front leg/chest dog when I first rolled him ... but by his 4th roll he was on the head.

Jack

Is there any correlation between slow or late starters and intelligence?