INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

[EWO]

There is a difference between how a dog is "papered" vs. how a dog is bred.

How a dog is actually bred is quite relevant IMO ... which can explain a lot, including the mouth of your stud

A couple of points. He was not my dog but that of a friend. But I did try to land something off of him every chance I had.

I agree knowing how a dog is bred is a lot different. Looking back if you knew what you know now would your breeding plans or selection process been any different? Hindsight being 20/20 I would say you would have made some different decisions for no more reason than you would have more information at your disposal. But at the same time I am thinking breeding your dogs 'kinda sorta turned out' with Hammer as the source.

So I definitely agree there is a difference and either can be corrected with selection and due diligence. One just will take a little longer than the other.

Good series of posts. Great topic. Lots of insight. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Pause! Na Jack I am not a cheerleader, talker, or a scary guy at all, but you are not going to slide your slick shit this way at all.
I know MOK liked the dog; he tried to put me onto the Diamond Dude dog. Early, it just was not my thing. I have passed on a lot of good dogs, sold my share of winners and dogs that ended up at stud on a number of yards.

Thanks for the background.

Your mistake on not taking Diamond Dude dogs.

So to answer your directly, No. MOK did not get dogs from me, we both got dogs from BBC and most of those dogs came from Mr. Cooper and Coleman who I also know. I have no shame in admitting that at all! In fact Mr. Cooper was the one that told me about the Ruben dogs over 15 years ago and Coleman is the one that put me onto the Bullet dogs.

Very interesting. Would be curious what Cooper had to say to you about the Reuben dogs.

Understanding how things go with relationships, in the dogs. That’s not STFU, that was a question, because I didn’t see the 45 dog, hence to question.
I can appreciate a good dog, period! If the 45 dog was one of those dogs GREAT, I am not hating at all. In fact I was glad for him. I considered MOK and BBC both to be friends, I could care less what they were feeding. BBC had a lot of dogs to choose from not just Bullet dogs and I never thought they nor MOK were kennel blind.
It was a house that was divided and they had their issues, but I have never chose sides in any of that. I am sure you can understand that.
Yes this is your “story”, and more over it’s your board, so till your “story”. I am not worried about you booting me off the board, that is your prerogative, do what you think is best.

I don't want to boot you off at all; it looks like I made a mistake as to the intent of your post and for that I apologize.

That isn’t an internet challenge Jack, it was an invitation. As for dumbass, PLEASE, Jack come on! If I have managed to stay off your radar, than it means that things are in order and I am far smarter than you think. Furthermore, I have NEVER had to rely on these dogs to pay a single bill or shed a tear about a dime I have left on the table. I might be a lot of things but I am far from a “dumbass”.

It looks like I might be the dumbass then, yet again

Honestly, I am extremely irritable with "the typical" kinds of questions/responses people give.

In this case, it looks like I @$$-umed you were doubting the dog, asking me "if I had seen it" (knowing I had not), just to cast doubt on him.

That kind of thing I find annoying as $#!^, so I mistook your simple question for something it was not, so again I will apologize and retract my statements.

I shouldn’t “mean shit” to you, get your emotion under control. Hell I don’t know you from Adam, but it won’t stop me from saying you have bred some good dogs. What I know to be general excepted is you are a pompous and arrogant, and that’s even ok with me.

What I am is extremely irritable, by nature.

I have no tolerance for dumb questions, or setup questions (designed to do nothing but detract), and I tend to go off on people who do this.

Unfortunately, sometimes I misread the intent of the poster, and make a complete ass of myself

The issue comes when you want to question who or what I am. It really isn’t that hard to iron it all out as men, that’s what “how you really want to carry it” means. It can be a phone call, 10 lbs of chicken, or we can do what we know, and really break bread. Now if that was out of line, I’d say perhaps, I would agree. If you don’t know me that is one thing, perhaps you should have asked a few more questions rather than jump on the soap box.

Well said.

You haven’t bred dogs in three years and they have bigger fish to fry. Ok, I won’t even speak on it, LMFAO, I know better!

You are the one who misread this time.

I said I haven't bred dogs in 3 years, and (you can laugh all you want) but my dogs HAVE defeated much bigger fish than you, and dozens of times too.

PM me who you are. We seem to know all the same people down there.

You were getting dogs from MOK and BBC ... while MOK's best stud he bought from me ... and BBC bought 5 dogs from me.

Let me help you with the hierarchical interpretation here: "you" are buying dogs from folks who were buying dogs from me ... where do you think that puts "you" on the totem pole

Now, let's do some more math here: the ONE dog MOK bought from me, Diamond Dude, proved to be falling-down game and one of THE most influential stud dogs MOK ever had.
And, of the 5 dogs BBC bought from me, 4 out of 5 proved game as shit, even by his severe standards.

Because of the fucked up things BBC did to Pup Pup and Super Red, BBC had to sneak through the back door (and send someone else) to buy U-Nhan-Rha and Salsa from me, when I was getting out, because I refused to sell him a dog after the way he did Pup Pup and Super Red. (If you know the story, you know BBC put these game little dogs WAYYY uphill, permanently disfiguring both of them, Puppy losing his leg, and Super Red losing her bottom jaw, but he could never stop them ).

BBC called me years later, speaking nothing but Praise of U-Nhan-Rha, who passed every test he put on him (after going an hour, twice, on my yard), and saying he was out-fighting younger dogs, even with no teeth left as an elder dog. U-ey produced many winners for BBC as well, before he died of cancer.

So don't you ever laugh at the quality of my dogs again.
I have bred more winners and 100% DG dogs in any 6-month period, when I was breeding, than you ever have in your life.

Understand that I’ll respect you as a man as long as that respect is reciprocated. Come at me sideways with the bullshit and I can shelf the nice guy shit also, and make personal. My heart isn’t on my sleeve, and I have had the same number for well over 20 years now.

I will respect you, up to a point. And, sorry, having the same phone number for 20 years doesn't quite get me there

Let me know who you are by PM, tell me something about the level of dogs you've put out there, the TRUE effort and contributions you've made, and I will respect you more and more.

But show me a nothing record, or just tell me about "people you know," and that won't bring out too much admiration from me, sorry.

I have ZERO issue with that at all, like I said MOK had some damn good dogs.

Yes, I know MOK had, bred, and was around damned good dogs all his life. That is what I said to begin with.

And, as I said, he felt Jackson's 45 was that good.

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

I never saw 45 go though he wasn't far from me. I know where he was, and I know that most of the people in that area weren't what I'd call top shelf competition. That being said, it doesn't take away from what 45 did. It just would've been nice for him to do into some dogs people thought more of I guess.

I saw Amboss go, and he was an outstanding dog. I did try to hook my Bullet dog into him before he became champion, but we had just beaten BBC not long before then. I don't know if that factored into it or not personally, but I always find those kind of scenarios interesting when they do happen.

I also knew MOK. I've known Jr Bush for over 20 years, along with some of his closest friends from showing dogs back in the 60s. Jr always had one of two things. He either had a top quality dog or he had one of the lowest quality dogs you could think to see, but it never bothered Jr. He just loved doing what he did.

That being said, I also believe that Indian Sonny would've probably made a better quality dog over the years of breeding. But like all who agreed, there would be so many top quality dogs that would've never existed. Even with Pat selling dogs, it's hard to argue with the success he had by breeding those dogs. I've never bought a dog from Pat, and while I've pondered it a time or two, I never really come close to doing so, but I would buy a dog from Indian Sonny if given the chance knowing what I know about his dogs and how he liked his dogs.

Given the right type of Eli dog, it can add a lot to your program if you're able to keep it going as needed. Being as the dogs I've bred, at this point, are based around the Eli/Redboy/Honeybunch scenario, it's hard to argue with the way those dogs are headed now with the proper molding and breeding decisions. I would be hard pressed to take any Maloney bred dogs over Jasper for any reason.

[Officially Retired]

I never saw 45 go though he wasn't far from me. I know where he was, and I know that most of the people in that area weren't what I'd call top shelf competition. That being said, it doesn't take away from what 45 did. It just would've been nice for him to do into some dogs people thought more of I guess.

I really can't comment on that, except to say I heard Jackson's 45 was with hoodrats, essentially. That was his problem: in the hands of undesirables and he had a freakishly-devastaing mouth. Who wants to go into either?

No, the circumstances of 45's ownership didn't take away from his abilities at all, but it DID take away from the potential of his achievements. Still, I don't care "who" owns a dog ... dogs just don't DOA other dogs on the head, twice in a row, unless they're being rolled with dogs 1/8th their size--or unless they are a freak. That is something an adult can do to a puppy, but seldom to another adult its own size. If a dog DOAs another dog on the head, ONCE, it's pretty much considered a freak occurrence. Again, Andy Capp did it once, in 5 fights, and he was called "The Mouth of the South" ... yet 45 did it twice in a row, at :17 and :19, in front of legit dog dudes, and that is a freakishly-hard mouth by any yardstick.

I have had head dogs for my whole career and never seen that once.
The only "fast DOAs" I have ever seen were throat dogs, cutting off the air.

If you knew where 45 was when he was active, and wanted to see him go into "something you thought more of," you could have always stepped up to the plate yourself

I saw Amboss go, and he was an outstanding dog. I did try to hook my Bullet dog into him before he became champion, but we had just beaten BBC not long before then. I don't know if that factored into it or not personally, but I always find those kind of scenarios interesting when they do happen.

Most people match dogs to win. If BBC didn't think he could beat your Bullet dog, after losing to him, that would be a good reason not to match, lol

MOK thought very highly of Amboss too and I think was in BBC's camp for all of his matches. Yet, he was never 100% sure he would win any of his shows (which is natural). In fact, MOK told me directly, "No matter how good a dog we have, I am always a little nervous going in ... but I would take 45 into any dog alive, or any dog I have seen, and not be nervous at all."

I never got the impression MOK was lying, or exaggerating; I got the impression he was simply that blown away with a once-in-a-lifetime animal ... that (due to his ability + ownership) never was able to realize his potential.

He said 45 was super-fast, extremely strong, and would not get bit ... and could kill you in less than :20 with his head hold. I am quite sure he couldn't have done that 10x in a row, but his sister (Jackson's Ch Violent) made Champion also, on gameness (she beat The Old Man we both know in 1:53). So the gameness was there too, in the sister at least, and 45 was 10x the physical specimen (and had 10x the mouth) as his game, Champion sister.

My point, is if Jackson's 45 was as game as he was BAD (and he had a license to be, bred like he was), he could have been an immortal in the right hands ... and would have been one helluva tough dog to beat in anyone's hands

I also knew MOK. I've known Jr Bush for over 20 years, along with some of his closest friends from showing dogs back in the 60s. Jr always had one of two things. He either had a top quality dog or he had one of the lowest quality dogs you could think to see, but it never bothered Jr. He just loved doing what he did.

A lot of guys are like that, just do dogs to do dogs.

That being said, I also believe that Indian Sonny would've probably made a better quality dog over the years of breeding. But like all who agreed, there would be so many top quality dogs that would've never existed. Even with Pat selling dogs, it's hard to argue with the success he had by breeding those dogs. I've never bought a dog from Pat, and while I've pondered it a time or two, I never really come close to doing so, but I would buy a dog from Indian Sonny if given the chance knowing what I know about his dogs and how he liked his dogs.

Well said.

Given the right type of Eli dog, it can add a lot to your program if you're able to keep it going as needed. Being as the dogs I've bred, at this point, are based around the Eli/Redboy/Honeybunch scenario, it's hard to argue with the way those dogs are headed now with the proper molding and breeding decisions. I would be hard pressed to take any Maloney bred dogs over Jasper for any reason.

I have always thought of Eli dogs as "a cur line" and the Bolio-type dogs as "a game line" ... but I realize how simple-minded this is now. Some of the rankest of curs I have ever seen were "pure Bolio dogs" ...

This is why I posted what I did, to get people to THINK about their own foundations: if the two lines you're mixing can't stand up as individual, pure lines ... then why use them at all?

Without reiterating what I have already said, even though I had a very good win/loss record as a breeder, if I could go back in time and re-do some of my foundational decisions, I would NOT have used lines/individuals who were not themselves capable of standing alone and winning on their own merits.

The more I think about it, the enemy of THE BEST isn't "the bad" ... it is The GOOD.

People tend to stop when they get something "good" ... and thereby never really achieve THE BEST they can do

Some lines are never able to achieve anything; they're simply not competitive nor are they bred to be;
Some lines are only able to achieve 0-2xWs, with an occasional VERY RARE Champion (Clouse, Hemphill, etc.);
Some lines are able to achieve 1-3xWs, with the occasional 5xW;

Most people stop there at that level ... and consider that "the best" they can do.
They're able to compete with any other dogmen, so why not stop there?

What I am talking about is, looking back at history, seeing the BEST dogs of all time, performance-wise, and trying to analyze which repeated and consistent combinations (not flukes) were put together to produce them?

NO ONE can produce all Champions ... or all 5x - 9x winners ... but my point is SOME mixes produce quite a lot of 3x-5xWs ... with (comparatively) frequent 6-8x winners ... as opposed to other combinations ... and these "elite crosses" are almost invariably Eli/Carver crosses of some kind, NOT "Bolio/Clouse" dogs, RBJ dogs, Jeep/Redboy, etc. These are but mid-level achievers, that always seem to lose huge Ch v Ch fights with equal-level Eli/Carver dogs.

Because, almost invariably, it is the Eli- or Eli/Carver combinations of some sort that are the true multi-multi-winners in our sport.

It is a subtle, but perceptible reality that I am just "thinking out loud" about, that's all.

Jack

[EWO]

Great topics. I think a lot can be said to the owners of the 7-8-9 and 10 time winners as well. They leaned a little more toward the money end of the win, or the benefits of winning vs. prolonging a certain line or a certain dog. A person who is purely selling dogs can use 2XW or CH as one of the more successful marketing tools out there. CH is a huge accomplishment and to the unknowing monumental.

Since we are thinking out loud I have always wondered why certain people stop with certain dogs, especially people I do not know or have no way of asking, understanding it is none of my frikkin' business in the first place.

No offense nor disrespect intended, but did STP see something that told him Buck did not have 8-9-10 in him? Did Mr. Bass say Molly Bee had done all she could at 8? If the game is about winning and breeders are breeding to make winners, since Bolio was so exceptional, why did he stop at 1? Wouldn't GRCH Honeybunch look better than 4XW CH Honeybunch?

I have spoken of CH. Angel. She won 3, all RIP. We all asked D. to keep going. We were winning money betting with him and I asked. He says, " I put her down 7 times, 3 RIP in the box, 2 RIP within minutes later, 1 picked up before it became the 6th RIP and your bitch quit". I don't see where she has to do anything else for me". D. was a guy truly, wholeheartedly all about the dogs. The money, the ego, or the notoriety meant nothing to him so I seen his point.

EWO

[FrostyPaws]

If you knew where 45 was when he was active, and wanted to see him go into "something you thought more of," you could have always stepped up to the plate yourself

Rather simple really. I don't fuck with hoodrats, undesirables, etc. I quit doing that years ago simply because it was already a calculated risk doing things with people I knew for years. I certainly wasn't going to risk my livelihood with people I didn't know. I also don't remember the dog's weight now, though I'm sure I did at that point.

Most people match dogs to win. If BBC didn't think he could beat your Bullet dog, after losing to him, that would be a good reason not to match, lol

He didn't lose to Bullet. He lost to Dolly.

I have always thought of Eli dogs as "a cur line" and the Bolio-type dogs as "a game line" ... but I realize how simple-minded this is now. Some of the rankest of curs I have ever seen were "pure Bolio dogs" ...

So did I, and I still do. My foray into that line of dogs did nothing but make that fact even more clear in my mind. Likewise, some of the rankest curs I've seen were Redboy dogs, but given that's what I primarily fed through the years, that's going to happen.

[FrostyPaws]

EWO, who knows really. In Buck's case, he was 6 (I believe) when he beat Sandman. He won that in over 3 hours. It was his hardest match, I'm sure, and it was also when he was passed his prime. While I'm confident that Buck could've won more, at that age and all that mileage, what's the point? Sometimes the risk simply isn't worth the reward, especially when you have a dog like a Buck.

I can comment on one particular dog that stopped at 3 instead of going for more. Ch.Beetlejuice came south from Canada and beat McNasty for his championship. McNasty had beaten Juice's brother, in a show prior to Juice's, in close to three hours. So, after he lost to Juice, he contacted the Canadian again about Juice. The Canadian told him that if he wanted Juice again, he'd have to bring Stan the Man into Canada at 42 lbs, and they could do it. Afterall, Juice had come into the states, why not take Stan to Canada? McNasty declined the offer, and that's why Juice only stopped at 3. I'm sure if he would've won his 4th, he would go out for his 5th, but that's all water under the bridge at this point.

[Black Hand]

I think the truly great competitors that are able to take a dog that far and had the sense to know it, also have the sense to know when it's enough.

[EWO]

For the most part I agree, and no one can really argue once a dog has one five. It is something I have always wondered about.
There is a male up this way, Redboy/RBJ that won two by the time he was 2 1/2, bred early, took a year or so off and then won two more. By the time he won his fourth his first and second litters were winning. The dog was 4 1/2 maybe 5 as a 4XW. They had the dilemma of whether to pursue 5 or even more, or keep his producing. When asked, I really did not have an answer. I could really see both points. EWO

[FrostyPaws]

I can see both points also, and really, it just comes down to what the owner wants to do more than anything else. Me personally, if a dog is a winner, and somewhere along the way starts producing winners regularly, it's time for the dog producing the winners to just stick to producing. If you're wanting to show dogs, and you have a dog producing those type of dogs, what would be the point of showing him again and possibly ruining what you have going at that moment. That is how I look at that type of scenario. In the same vein, if I were to show a dog and I saw the type of gameness I wanted from the dog, I'd not show him again even if he did win.

The amount of wins isn't much to me given most things. If the dog is a destroying, generally bad dog with bad intentions, then yeah, I'm probably going to continue showing that dog until I feel the dog has had enough OR the dog shows the bottom end I'm looking for.

But like you said, and I agree, it's easy to see both points.