((( Great Pit Dogs who were NOT APBTs )))

[skipper]

The breeding Duke to Ringo's Ruby (a daughter to psycho) produced a couple of winners if I recall correctly. This was way before my time so I have no first hand experience. I have some experience of todays staffords though. I must say, if we take in consideration how few fanciers working and breeding their stock the way it should be done the quality is remarkable high. I'm not saying the staffords are in line with the pitbulls, but the worst dogs I've seen were well bred apbts, not staffords. And as Gaba said, if the fanciers hadn't switched to apbts it would be very interesting to see were the staffords would've been today. I have no doubt they would be as good as the pitbulls.

[Officially Retired]

The breeding Duke to Ringo's Ruby (a daughter to psycho) produced a couple of winners if I recall correctly. This was way before my time so I have no first hand experience. I have some experience of todays staffords though. I must say, if we take in consideration how few fanciers working and breeding their stock the way it should be done the quality is remarkable high. I'm not saying the staffords are in line with the pitbulls, but the worst dogs I've seen were well bred apbts, not staffords. And as Gaba said, if the fanciers hadn't switched to apbts it would be very interesting to see were the staffords would've been today. I have no doubt they would be as good as the pitbulls.

That is an interesting observation, because I have seen plenty of APBT specimens, off of supposedly "good lines," that were complete and utter garbage. Hell, the worst Poncho dogs are at least game bums!

So it is kind of a key statement that the staffords never really dip as low as some of the bulldogs get. And if some of the staffords are still competitive, then I don't have any doubts either that at least a small breeding group could be established and developed into a consistently-good strain.

Jack

[gabbagabbahey]

This is a story about a very good Staffordshire Bull Terrier,his owner & his offspring. He was not as well known as other Ch Staffords but maybe that was because his owner never reported matches. His name is Ch Oscar & he was of pure kennel club show lines.
He was campaigned by one of the best conditioners in the North Of Ireland & regarded as one of the best by the people who had the pleasure seeing him perform.
Well,here we go..............
Oscar was so strong & agile & could really barnstorm. Starting on the head,he would shake the sense out of an opponent & when he had one down & disorientated,he would move into the chest & shoulders,driving deep to really send the shock home. He almost always got 1st hold & could turn over any size opponent very quickly.
His daughter Squaw & his gr-son Archie had similar style. When Squaw was matched at 29lb into Fran's Murdock at 36lb (because at the time,no one would match into Squaw at any weights) she totally outfought him for 50min,keeping him down on the defensive & taking punishment until the weight difference began to tell & she was picked up at 1hr 11min. Murdock later won against McGuinnan's dog at 37lb in 1hr 38min !!!!
Ten years previous to these matches,Oscar was the dog they were all trying to beat. He was open to any dog at any weight. Nothing was written down,but this is how it was remembered by his owner & the ones that saw him go.
His 1st was into his gr-sire Rory who was never beaten until he met Oscar & Rory had fought all over Northern Ireland. After the match (which Oscar dominated) Rory's owner who was an icon in the staffords at that time,shook Oscar's owners hand in front of all the spectators & declared "the king is dead,long live the king". This mean't a lot to Oscar's owner,back in 1975.
His 2nd was into Locke's Rebel who also was a very good dog. He was the only one to stand toe to toe with Oscar,but after the first 10min or so,Oscar's great footwork & strength put him on top & Rebel was eventually picked up.
His 3rd was into Goose's Sultan who was like the previous two opponents,unbeaten (none of these dogs were ever beaten by another dog). Oscar barnstormed Sultan into being picked up without ever making a bad sign or turn.
When Oscar was later sold for breeding at 6 1/2yr old,supposedly into retirement,his new owners hooked him up once again into Rebel as Rebels owners thought they could beat him without the conditioning of Oscar's original owner. They were wrong & lost again.
By the time Oscar reached 7 1/2yr old his new owner hooked him into a young up & coming dog called Super Sam who was a couple pound bigger. This was a very close match & although Oscars original owner was not there,he got the report from both sides,who agreed to a draw at 1hr 15min. Super Sams owner felt lucky to have got a draw & never took him out again.
Oscars daughter Squaw had her 1st outing against a bigger red bitch,stopping her in 7min.
One day when Squaws owner was rolling dogs,Squaw stopped 3 Tandragee bitches in a row. All being heavier than herself. After this she was rolled into a 34lb dog called Paint & for 20min he was taking stick,but his owner was happy with his gameness !! Imagine game testing a 34lb dog with a 29lb bitch ?
The next for Squaw was Patches,owned by JD at 30lb tops. Patches had got some reputation for bite & agility. The Farmer Boys would not risk a match so they asked Squaws owner to take the show on with Squaw. Patches quit in 21min.
After this no one would have anything to do with Squaw & on one occassion the Farmer Boys were asked if they would match between 28-32lb. They asked if it was Squaw & knowing them boys had access to plenty of stock which was farmed out all over the place,they could not find a single dog between 28-32lb. In desperation,Squaw was matched into Murdock at 36lb.
Squaw was sold at 5yr old & thats when the young boys bred her to Fred (gr-son to Rory) to get Archie. Squaw was rolled on a regular basis to assess the ability of other dogs & this is where her original owner went back in & bought her back to live her days out.
The Boneyard Boy's were to join up with Squaws owner & had a 2 or 3xw called Nellie who was a Stafford x EBT cross,which they could not get hooked up. Squaws owner decided to go into Nellie with Squaw who was now 7 1/2yr old.
Early on in her keepit was noticed that Squaws wind was wrong. She would work fine for 15-20min,but then start hacking for breath. Her owner was convinced that the last owners had been rolling her & choking her off,instead of using sticks & the cartilage in her trachia had thickened up or scarred.
Anyhow for the 1st 15min of the match Squaw totally outclassed Nellie,until her wind went & she became cyanosed. Her tongue was out & blue. Nellie was able to get off her back & get to Squaws legs. At around 25min Squaw was too far into oxygen dept to recover while trying to fight Nellie,who was very game & would not be disabled to stop her. Squaw was picked up & RB tried frantically to get a side bet of 100uk that Squaw would courtesy,which of course she did. She flew across !!
Her son Archie was tested on many occasions & won one match.
Archie in his turn produced a couple of game ones too. Only one reached the pit called Paddy & he lost to an APBT due to Paddys owner being a novice & picking up Paddy while he was winning.
Paddys litter sister Dollar on her turn produced a game bitch called Dutch when mated to Buster who was a son of Docks Gr Ch Duke.
Dutch was tested by Bayfarm's & bred from several times until she was sold to FFB who on their turn bred her to a 1xw called Jack.
At the same time Oscars bloodline is still alive in Ireland. Archie's last mating to Dutch's sister produced some fair stock also.

***This article was copied from a magazine. The owner of them staffords was a huge miss to the breed i feel. His dogs were never for sale or stud & he never sought any recognition of any kind. As honest as the day is long,in my opinion & that trait is as hard to find as a great stafford***

[skipper]

Great read gabba. Thnx for sharing.

[skipper]

That is an interesting observation, because I have seen plenty of APBT specimens, off of supposedly "good lines," that were complete and utter garbage. Hell, the worst Poncho dogs are at least game bums!

So it is kind of a key statement that the staffords never really dip as low as some of the bulldogs get. And if some of the staffords are still competitive, then I don't have any doubts either that at least a small breeding group could be established and developed into a consistently-good strain.

Jack

This is only my personal observation and opinion. Would be great to hear what others have to say. Although they most often aren't as good as the best apbts. I have never seen one that where complete garbage. The main thing that the staffords seem to lack is natural air. I haven't seen enough to make a general observation for the whole breed.

[Nash]

Great read Gabba.