Holland's haymaker

[EWO]

Same here.

I think we said the same thing. Same flavor, different labels.

Time and knowing the dogs in the family. That is selection. If you bred a dog for a certain reason and you see that certain reason in his offspring that is the dog you are going with.

Does that mean he is the producer and his brother is not? Nope, not in the least. But we base that selection on personal knowledge.

The kicker is that his cur brother or sister that was culled may have been the producer all along.

I'm no breeder but the Mountain Man told us once as soon as guy tells you he knows how to breed dogs to get dogs, RUN!.

You do the best you can with what you have, select, and go from there.

And if it were easy tons of people would be making tons of money. But even then someone has to be proofing these dogs.

EWO

[CYJ]

Ditto EWO on the top conditioner being able too hide the cur. A super rough cur that is put in top shape and shown against a dog man of inferior conditioning methods, even having a great dog. Will generally lose every time. Until a newbie gets to see all the variables of the game. Opinions of gaminess is all over the place.

I have seen some considered deep game dogs go up to two hours or more. Maybe up to thirty scratches back and forth. I can tell you except for the betters involved. It starts out exciting, then can get real boring fast.

Then that same deep game winning dog later runs into a super aggressive and powerful dog. Get's piled into a corner, unable to work itself out of a bad situation. Either quits or has to be picked up.

IMHO, I feel there has always been two classes of these type dogs. With both types having very few deep game dogs under various show conditions. IMHO, if you got the monster show dog, show it in the cold weather season. This type dog put in top shape, has a much better chance of winning. These type dogs can wear themselves out by the ninety minute mark.

One has the big boned deep game acting dog. Without a lot of the Monster dog's attributes. Bring this type dog out in the middle of Summer and hope they bring that monster. Remember how Don Mayfield played that game with Tombstone X Bullyson. I believe it was Earl Tudor that said a match well made is a match well won.

The conclusion of all of this. It always boils down to a couple of things. The dog conditioner always wants to win and the dog breeder always wants to sell the dogs. One has to decide which one they want to be. To be able to pull it all off is quite a feat indeed. My Hat off to you. Especially in these days and times. Hey, good dog food per pound, costs about as much as a nice steak per pound today. LOL Cheers

[EWO]

Very true.

There have been a bunch of game dogs that were losing dogs due to conditioning and talent on the other side. There is nothing wrong with being a losing game dog. What happens most of the time is that they are left down hoping against hope that the other dog quits on top or there is some sort of miracle come back. Lots of really game dogs lost this way.

Agreed it is a line in the sand between working dogs and selling puppies. There is also nothing wrong with selling puppies it is the pitch that makes the difference. Selling puppies off the sweat of another man's brow coupled with fake war stories is peddling. Peddling has been the Achilles heel to all working breeds, not bulldogs only.

I can remember when the harshest insult that could be made about some one was, "Oh, he is just selling puppies". That was the worst. You could call him every name under the sun, everything fell short.

Also agree on a 'match well made'. Giving your own dog an honest evaluation can be tough at times. There is a lot of kennel blindness in performance dogs. Sometimes it does not allow a person's dogs to get better and at other times it leads them into the wrong place at the wrong time. Most people wait to the cold weather as it gives leniency to being off in the keep. Those summer time dogs and summer time camps can be a sight to behold. That cold weather monster might be a summer time bum.

The times have changed as well. It is different time now. Privacy is just a word now, no real meaning to the masses. I can remember when the neighbor could come borrow a cup of sugar and you did not have to worry about him running to tell what he saw. Those days a re pretty much gone.

Sorry for getting off track with the Haymaker thread. Great posts/topics often change directions.

To the original poster, my apologies. I would not really worry about whether Haymaker did or did not quit. BY now it really does not matter. He has produced some dogs and in turn produced dogs that produced dogs. I hit you up with a really good strain down out of him. Solid dogs. Solid camp.

EWO

[ATKJJJ]

Pretty much it. I'd say probably every dog has some dust in the corner if you look hard enough. And they is a big difference between production and battle record.
Good dogs are where they are. But now a days folks don't look at what's under the hood they look at a ped. Half assed pre school him and expect him to be a Ch and when he fails they get another bloodline to run down.
The dogs are only as good as the man or woman behind them. You want good dogs look at how the dogs LOOK you are buying. Not just the ped..

[S_B]

Pretty much it. I'd say probably every dog has some dust in the corner if you look hard enough. And they is a big difference between production and battle record.
Good dogs are where they are. But now a days folks don't look at what's under the hood they look at a ped. Half assed pre school him and expect him to be a Ch and when he fails they get another bloodline to run down.
The dogs are only as good as the man or woman behind them. You want good dogs look at how the dogs LOOK you are buying. Not just the ped..

Seeing is believing.

S_B

[DeezNutz]

Round and round we go.. It's a never ending story who-what-where-when-how.. It all boils down to the end user and if in fact they using them.. 80% chance they are nothing more than coffee table dog men.. Sitting around the coffee table talking about the grandparents and great grandparents of there newly acquired shit eater.