Who is Hughes and Holcomb?

[EWO]

One of the things I learned as a kid form the 'old guys' was that the keep didn't last 6 or 8 or ten weeks. The 'keep' started 63 days before they were born when the two dogs were chosen to be bred and it lasted until the dog was no longed 'working toward the next show'.

It pretty much translated to anything and every thing can matter. Maybe not every detail affects every dog but every dog is affected by details.

I guess the object is to do the best you can in as many situations as possible. No one person nor one plan will be perfect for every dog.

My two favorite subjects in the dogs are working and feeding. I have fed just about every way possible over the years and these dogs are amazing because they seem to well regardless of feed. They will all survive on just about anything and will thrive when being fed any number of ways.

In the late 80's I was in the service and rented a farmhouse in the Pungo community near Chesapeake, VA. He was a butcher by trade and did some meat processing at home as well during their deer season. I fed whatever he brought home in a five gallon bucket. There was no rhyme nor reason to how I fed the dogs other than it came out of the bucket in the reverse order in which it went in the bucket. I won some matches back then with that being the staple of the dog's diet. It was almost feeding RAW before I knew anything about feeding RAW.

It was one of those details that did not register with me early on and it took a number of years for that light bulb to go off. Feeding raw leaves a dog leaner and does not carry big dumps around while toting a chain. When it was time to go to work and switch to a keep feed the dog was already pre-fueled with good food and from there it was adjusting supplements.

This detail didn't land on me til years later when I had a ton of dogs and I didn't have access to free raw meat daily. I went to bag food. The dogs seem to carry weight a little more on dry feed and when it was time for work I bet I said 'he really took to the keep around week 6/7/8. It took years for me to understand that after switching to keep feed the dog was actually being fueled at 8+ weeks after the switch.

Those details can also be considered lessons learned but I do believe everything matters.

EWO

[EWO]

Even tho those dogs were bred by different people back then, whether it was Crews or Chavis or Tant or Waccamaw, the Jocko-Red Boy dogs seemed to be cookie cutter consistent.

You could look across a field or yard full of dogs and pick out a Jocko Red Boy dog.

One of the best threads ever on this board was the battle between Sonny and Jack. Sonny's quote that sparked the debate was that "RBJ dogs had made more dead game dogs than any other".

Or in so many words. It could be read as the RBK family created it within themselves or they RIP the other game dogs.

Solid family of dogs.

S

Frank43, I knew Crews, he had some good to great dogs along with partner Tant. No doubt you take good care of your dogs. From their breeding, some should turn out well. Cheers

[Frank43]

I agree with you that the keep isn't 6-8 weeks. This is why I hate the large yard dog people. I think it's counter productive. The dogs receive minimal attention. They aren't worked out. Any high level athlete has no offseason. There's a basic level of physical fitness that needs to be maintained. These large dog yards don't get that. Just random breeding and the hope there is a phenom in there. A pile of dead dogs. Someone bragging how hard they are on the dogs.

I hear you on the consistency of red boy jocko dogs. It starts with how they were bred. My interest isn't in redboy jocko dogs per se but yellow John cottingham dogs no jocko.

[EWO]

If you pursue Yellow John and those first Cottingham dogs the Jocko is already there just not papered that way.

Big boned, dumb as a stump, and the majority would scratch all night. The ones that did those things but could bite are the ones we talk about still today.

An older fellow once told me when a Red Boy dog could bite that was Mr. Krebbs coming thru and when they could not bite it was Mr. Teal coming to the front.

EWO

[Frank43]

the crews dogs I have been exposed to, seem smarter than the average red boy dog. they are intense but seem smarter than the average redboy dog.

[EWO]

That can be based on selection as well. Along the way if someone chose the smarter dogs from the bunch then the smarter dogs should perpetuate.

The kicker is that the original Red Boy dogs were not known to be smart dogs. They were called dumb ol' Red Boy dogs, even tagged those first RBJ dogs as dumb ol' Jocko-Red Boy dogs.

Back then they were singularly focused and whatever they grabbed is where they stayed and usually took more than they gave. In the beginning the crosses were made to either add mouth to a Red Boy dog or add depth to hard charging/hard mouth to another family.

From there some smart ones popped up. The Red Boy dogs I dealt with never really had 'smart' as a calling card. We felt we were scratching a high percentage of the time.

We concentrated on looking for mouth. The dogs that could bite were matched and sometimes bred.

Every now and then we had some smart ones but they were usually a cross of some sort.

I am no breeder but I do believe if you select certain traits and breed for those you will in time get those traits. If you do not do anything to remove certain traits, again, thru selection, you will get those traits too.

EWO

[Frank43]

It is all selection. I just wonder how redboy himself was. Did Cottingham Sheba throw some brains. I was talking to someone yesterday. I told the bolio tombstone dogs I have been around seem to have an iq of 130 -140. While the crews yellow Cottingham/rocky dogs. They seem to have the redboy intensity but more brains. Like their iq is 120. I just wonder if that is one thing that they selected for. Dumb scratch all day.

[EWO]

CYJ can answer to what Red Boy was back then. He is one of the last 'first hand knowledge' people left in the dogs.

I can only attest to what I seen off Red Boy (as a kid). Thise dogs were big, slow and dumb but they were super intense and would scratch to a sign post. For the most part they would take far more than they would give. There were very few that separated themselves with brains. The percentage of game dogs was pretty high but the ones that stood out were the ones that could bite.

What I grew up in never looked at gameness as a factor as it would be better said it was considered a 'given'. It was sort of understood.

From there mouth became the primary factor in whether as dog had a chance or was given a chance to show. The Red Boy dogs I remember being on the yard for more than a couple years were the ones that could bite.

Later on people bred 'smart' dogs to the family and in turn got some smart dogs here and there.

From there, and not saying it is fact or just how things are remembered, it seemed like people went to Red Boy to fix everything bulldog. Almost like Red Boy could make game dogs out of Cocker Spaniels. Every now and then a a really good one would pop out from those early crosses. The myths of Red Boy being the 'be all-end all' of game dogs really started to grow and spread.

The popularity started to rise and soon it was skyrocketing. Those early on third, fourth and fifth generation Red Boy dogs were 'bred back and forth to be pure' and from there the prices went up and the ability to stand alone went down.

I am no expert on Red Boy dogs and I don't have personal experience with every family nor every strain. I think back to those dogs I was around as a kid and when one of the dogs bred heavier on the Red Boy popped up that looked, acted and performed like those childhood Red Boy dogs I try to latch on to them.

From there I landed on the Mims family and the Mims strain of Red Boy dogs. His dogs were basically three-way crosses. The better ones that I had were 50% Red Boy and then a blend of Snooty and Bolio for the other half. It was some Vindicator and Paladin blood in the back but for the most part it was Red Boy-Snooty-Bolio.

We had a bunch of high percentage game dogs over the years from the Mims family. A lot of these dogs were super smart, slick as glass and were offensively minded head dogs. For a family, mouth was average to above average but every now and then there some freak mouthed dogs in the mix.

Even at 50% or 3/4, every now and then we would get a big, slow and dumb dog that reminded me of the dogs I first known as Red Boy dogs. Almost like Red Boy had navigated his way thru 30-40 years of breeding, crosses included.

I am not sure what Sheba threw. The Cottingham dogs were known to be game. The Cottinghams matched a lot of dogs, and they came out with a lot of dogs that came out, won by outlasting the other and did not come back out afterwards. They had a number of picked up game dogs. They were not known for being super biters nor being super smart. But just like the Red Boy dogs I knew as a kid they would make scratch.

The really heavy Red Boy dogs that I have seen do good things and almost look like stand alone dogs is when someone using different strains of Red Boy dogs together. One of the better ones I have seen was a dog called Bubba who was bred down from Hardcore Kennels Chance to some of the Pee Dee Kennels Red Boy dogs. That family was bred to a Mims/Cottingham/Medlin's Outlaw blood. This dog was maybe 3/4 or better but won a ton of matches. His owner would pull him off the chain anytime something close to his chain weight was open. The dog was big, slow and had a ton of mouth. I would not say he was super smart but I will say he would not trade and swap being happy getting the short end of the stick just to have one end of the stick.

EWO

[Frank43]

I hear you. I have been blending some bolio tombstone with redboy. I like the family. How much Redboy is the question snd can you find redboy that doesn't destroy the mouth and the brains. Basically you're looking for the ones with the structure and wind that Redboy brings. It doesn't seem like you need a lot. I have had 1/4 redboy and some still scream. I like ones that get on your head control the action snd close the show. I lost a good dog the other day off a dumb mistake. I have two kids off her. I wanted to build around that dog. Her mom and dad are still there so I guess you can try the breeding again. Wait for this son to grow and go back to the grandmother hoping the out keeps some vigor. I have my one crews female that I can breed when she comes in. Well built and intense. Seems to have some mouth. These losses hurt. I have some sisters I farmed out. One is in a pet home. That sister was like the dog I lost. Maybe stick her to the dog I was going to breed the dog I lost to.

As to redboy. I like my mix. I think you need it. How much and how many pure dogs do you need.

To be honest theirs is something about that cross when you get the redboy wind with the fast twitch muscle the bolio dogs bring.

[EWO]

The Bolio-Red Boy combination is age old.

When Patrick's Kasai was crossed onto the Mims family the heavier the Red Boy on the Mims side the better. Somewhere the shot of Snooty gave it some boost as well.

Kasai thru freak strong pound for pound dogs. 37-40lbs on the lead felt like a 60-70lb dog dragging you down the road.

They cut weight better than any family of dog I have ever seen. They could be pulled to nothing and maintained that type of pound for pound strength.

The funniest, and maybe the oddest, is that Patrick's Kasai threw a boat load of mouth. If the female could bite a little bit, the offspring could flat shut it down.

Crossed to the Mims females the dogs could bite and breathe with the best of them and muscle their way in if their talent did not get them there.

Nice families.

EWO