Good post, thanks Jack. Seems like common sense which, as I know, is not all that common.Originally Posted by CA Jack
Good post, thanks Jack. Seems like common sense which, as I know, is not all that common.
I like clean family bred dogs or intense line bred dogs that carry consistency and are game dogs that I can build on. Not so much in to inbreeding except at need or in preparation moving forward. Not to just hold on to or preserve, meaning you still have to show you have what I bred for. The individuals make up the blood and pedigree so I hate the preservation, bred to produce breedings, or its in the blood. I also do realize there are exceptions especially to those that have been with a fam long as exceptions are not the norm. I feel if a dog and his litter carries and produces consistent traits and I pair it with another that does the same then I can breed forward with dogs that compliment eachother. Even if I chose to cross this is what makes a good stud or brood bitch for me. Some individuals may pull more from certain parts of there ped or even have that little something a sibling lacks. If they can produce it is what counts and how consistent. I don't want 2 out of 10 and the rest undesireables or plugs and all out of uniform. I look at what a stud or bitches litter was like too and were they consistent. If I have 2 bitches, litter mates. They lack real good punch and bone. Both pretty intense and smart with good speed, natural air, strength, hard scratching, and gameness. But, one is all out and doesn't have the tools to do what she wants to do early. She takes a lot for it but settles well and counters movements well once she settles farther into things. She also has a little better body composition. The other just let's it come to her more and has the tools to hurt her opposition with great natural wind. To see them both the latter looks more rounded, but when put together they were tit for tat. This would show me even more so that the other was smart. She just felt she could and would try to go gusto.
Say I bred the sister that was more all out and settled well to a game durable male with finish and a sweet spot. He is bred off older dogs in her pedigree but up close still in the 2nd and 3rd generation threw different individuals. The older dogs had a more durable and rugged build to them. This is a back cross to pull forward the qualities in the gene pool I'd need without losing what I have. To me the bitch had every thing her sister did but just thought she could do more than her god given assets would allow nor was her instinct complete. But, she was smart enough to realize it at some point each time and solid enough to turn the tables while having the instinct to do so. I would not breed away from that. I would harness it and remember she was still in line with her litter and my program. Now fast forward say her offspring with said male so far are just what I bred for. More durable and know that sweet spot like there dad if they want to push early like there mom while being more rounded like what is consistent. I can't say I got more punch as they are young and developing. But since she wanted to finish but didnt have the tools the male from the family with a good sweet spot and durable was fitting to compliment her. For her sister, the more poised of the 2 and so to the point she seemed to not care how long it would take. Remember she has decent punch though and can hurt her opposition. Say I go with a male bred from the same family threw different individuals with slight outs but still in line with what exists. This male also hits the same sweet spot as the other male and sticks in holds and like the female stays out of trouble with good punch. He has very good bone and structure also. Her speed should also compliment him well. Not to mention being that his side of the family is known for being harder punching which you don't get a lot of school time out of. If checking my own good I'd know the level of gameness from the bitches side and determined dogs can compliment him and ultimately the program in the long run as well. He also comes from a litter that is consistent. Because they are so similar in lineage with this consistency and good %'s. I'd believe using the same formula to produce them that the traits will stick for better rounded dogs and hope in the future to bring the sisters pups together and back to the aunts. If I started with the bitches mom where I have complimented and corrected shortcomings improving my dogs 1st to 2nd gen. Also say there mom did have way more punch and so did there sire. I expect this 3rd gen may recoup that from them too as some traits skip generations. This in essence would keep me a couple breedings ahead at least in structuring my family and looking for the individuals. Oh and say I do have an out planned to a solid family bred male that is proven. This is what I will hope to keep at a 1/4th to 1/8th out or so to maintain the vigor in my family once I bring the breedings together. He himself is one of 3 out of 4 winning siblings and has all the traits I like and has proven his gameness. I also have a heavier bred male that is a nephew to the older male I back crossed to that is off his half brother and sister from a more intense line breeding. I'd also be watching for deficiencies. I would not knowingly put a deficiency in my program. If it is there and I have dealt with it then I will deal with it and narrow it chances of popping out when I can. This is my breeding theory to grow with in a nutshell.
Wow. Thanks for sharing all that, EGK.
You welcome, I was bored lol and Im sure went over board. Smh
Can't agree with that, really at all.Those same guys will say inbreed and then outcross. When that actually works odds are the outcross was better than the animals being inbred. If you have to go over there to get it, one should have been over there from the start. EWO
Suppose I have a highly-linebred bitch who has everything (speed, timing, reflexes, brains, air, the style I like, etc.) ... except she doesn't have a heavy mouth.
But I want to outcross her to mouthy dog down from a line known for heavy mouth in crease the mouth in my dogs a bit?
Does that mean I should shitcan my whole game, intelligent, longwinded yard ... just to "have mouthy dogs" ... even if those dogs SUCK as overall athletes compared to what I have?
Suppose that the heavy mouth dog doesn't have her speed, doesn't have her moves, doesn't have her style, etc. ... but he has the MOUTH I want ... comes from mouth ... and so I breed to that dog?
Suppose I then breed the best male back to my bitch, to double-up on what I like, and push the influence of that stud down a notch.
Typically, 3/4, 1/4 crosses have always been awesome.
My bitch might outclass the shit out of the "mouthy male" I bred to in a fight at even weight. He may never get his mouth on her one time.
Just because I bred to that male doesn't mean that he is "better," or his line is "better"; it means he has ONE trait I am looking to add to my (overall FAR better) dog and line.
But if I had to make an "either-or" decision, I would rather keep my line pure, and have everything BUT mouth ... than to lose everything I have to say, "I bite hard."
Most mouthy lines aren't known for gameness.
Most truly game lines aren't known for mouth.
All throughout history, dogmen have mixed inbred individuals from mouthy lines with lines known for gameness to "get it all" ... and I reckon this will always be the case.
Jack
Can't agree with that, really at all.
Suppose I have a highly-linebred bitch who has everything (speed, timing, reflexes, brains, air, the style I like, etc.) ... except she doesn't have a heavy mouth.
But I want to outcross her to mouthy dog down from a line known for heavy mouth in crease the mouth in my dogs a bit?
Does that mean I should shitcan my whole game, intelligent, longwinded yard ... just to "have mouthy dogs" ... even if those dogs SUCK as overall athletes compared to what I have?
Suppose that the heavy mouth dog doesn't have her speed, doesn't have her moves, doesn't have her style, etc. ... but he has the MOUTH I want ... comes from mouth ... and so I breed to that dog?
Suppose I then breed the best male back to my bitch, to double-up on what I like, and push the influence of that stud down a notch.
Typically, 3/4, 1/4 crosses have always been awesome.
My bitch might outclass the shit out of the "mouthy male" I bred to in a fight at even weight. He may never get his mouth on her one time.
Just because I bred to that male doesn't mean that he is "better," or his line is "better"; it means he has ONE trait I am looking to add to my (overall FAR better) dog and line.
But if I had to make an "either-or" decision, I would rather keep my line pure, and have everything BUT mouth ... than to lose everything I have to say, "I bite hard."
Most mouthy lines aren't known for gameness.
Most truly game lines aren't known for mouth.
All throughout history, dogmen have mixed inbred individuals from mouthy lines with lines known for gameness to "get it all" ... and I reckon this will always be the case.
Jack
or.... How about breed together two game lines that aren't known for mouth but are both game as can be, maybe the other game line is known for tough skin and really good air, traits that a high ability fast pace intelligent dog can use... and watch the mouth appear from nowhere!
Sure, as you say, sometimes that type of thing comes from the very "hybrid vigor" itself.
Bottom line is, no one pure bloodline "has everything" ... although the best purebred lines are WELL ROUNDED.
I would say my dogs are extremely well-rounded animals: they're game, tough, smart, can move, can breathe, etc. ... and some can bite hard enough to end things in under an hour ... but they aren't "freak mouthed" dogs.
Almost everyone "mixes something" together in the attempt to get "the whole package."
The entire RBJ bloodline is the effort to mix Redboy and Jocko lines (gameness + finish/mouth) together to get a rounded animal. Jeep/Redboy, same thing.
The Boyles bloodline, same thing again (Bolio/Eli).
If anyone pays attention to Garner's dogs, they're essentially Bolio/Eli (Eli/Carver) also, with the idea of combining power + gameness/moves.
Ultimately, all these original "crosses" begin to become "purebred lines" of their own ... and, if what they produce is GOOD, they too will be well-rounded animals ... but, eventually, they'll also "lack something" that maybe some other bloodline "has" ...
The idea that this other bloodline that "has that" missing "something" they lack ... is automatically "superior" (as if on every level) ... is absolutely absurd.
There IS NO "purebred bloodline" that is comprised of ace-level dogs with no weaknesses.
EACH purebred bloodline becomes known for certain key strengths, and certain key limitations. That's just the way things work.
The best purebred bloodlines are simply well-rounded, capable athletes ... but that doesn't mean every trait they have is off the charts ... it just means they have no glaring weaknesses, can be depended on to go into the trenches, and so are tough to beat.
Jack
I seen everything Ceasar did once he left nc. That dog never quit. If you contact lifetakers or stretched out kennels they'll tell you. We did roll him against wargam's push up and it was a straight blow out. Ceasar had purple blood running out of push up's chest after the first bite. Push up was almost gone in 5 minutes. (Eyes rolling in back of his head)They asked to stop it in 6 mins. We refused!!! After the older kennels said it was Unprofessional not to get Ceasar off push up. we agreed to get Ceasar. Push up scratched super weak. It took Jim to the 7 count to make contact.
When it was Ceasar turn he came like a rocket. The other handler picked his dog up before Ceasar hit him. Ceasar jumped up trying to rip him out this clowns hands. Ceasar fell over the box and hit his face off the cement floor. (All hell broke lose) Ceasar jumped back into the box and was chasing this clown around the box. We got Ceasar under control and was tail scratching him while things got ugly outside for picking his dog up during the scratch.
So in retaliation for the aftermath after the roll they told chico Lopez the dog quit and it spread like wild fire.
The reason for chico spreading the rumor was because Ceasar killed open house's big john Jr. (2xw) In 48 mins. Ceasar never touched his back.
Chico is a pure hater. He will claim Ceasar was 3 lbs heavier then big john Jr but that's incorrect. Ceasar was on weight at 46 and big john Jr was 45.13. We came down from 49 to 46.
The owner of push up barked up the wrong tree. He believed what was said on the net about Ceasar and got smashed in 7 mins. We where fools for playing with a clown like that but you live and you learn.
Push up end up getting killed in 17mins by gto's Fatboy. Sired by gto's big boy.
Sorry jack about the graphic details I just wanted to put our side out.
No problem, this place is not Rated G, lol, so thanks for the clarification.
I hear you on Chico, and he is a POS who will down good dogs that embarrass his ass, so I can definitely relate.
Welcome aboard,
Jack
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